1967 Corvette L89 Convertible Warranty Book Protecto Plate Trim Tag GM orig. on E-Bay

[Edward M.]

Re: 1967 Corvette L89 Convertible Warranty Book Protecto Plate Trim Tag GM orig. on E

The definition of deceive is to mislead by a false appearance or statement, to give a false impression, to make (someone) believe something that is not true, to cause to accept as true or valid what is false or invalid.

So why would one restamped an engine VIN to match their car for any other reason than to make it look as if it were the original giving a false appearance?

If owners want to do this, well ok. It is their car them can do as they like. But don't say it is not deception. Restoration is the art of deception, making something appear as it is not...... to deceive. Nothing wrong with doing that.

Gene;

My comment here was that the intention was not to mislead someone that this engine was not a restamped engine. I am making the distinction here between restoration for judging (part of the game) and possible fraud.

If I restamp an engine and tell you it is a restamp, I am playing the game, but not committing fraud.
If I restamp and engine and tell you it is original, that is a whole different story, particularly if I make a financial gain from this deception.

[Gene M.]

Re: 1967 Corvette L89 Convertible Warranty Book Protecto Plate Trim Tag GM orig. on E

Gene;

My comment here was that the intention was not to mislead someone that this engine was not a restamped engine. I am making the distinction here between restoration for judging (part of the game) and possible fraud.

If I restamp an engine and tell you it is a restamp, I am playing the game, but not committing fraud.
If I restamp and engine and tell you it is original, that is a whole different story, particularly if I make a financial gain from this deception.

And how many times does the owner offer the statement that "the engine is a restamp" prior to the NCRS judge looking at one's Corvette? Or for sale on eBay? I'll answer .... NOT

[Edward M.]

Re: 1967 Corvette L89 Convertible Warranty Book Protecto Plate Trim Tag GM orig. on E

And how many times does the owner offer the statement that "the engine is a restamp" prior to the NCRS judge looking at one's Corvette? Or for sale on eBay? I'll answer .... NOT

No argument from me on that, but that isn't the point of this discussion.

The topic of this discussion is the LEGAL issues associated with defacing, altering, removing, adding, etc. any of the theft control devices that are legally required to be on a vehicle and some of the major components.

There may be many moral issues around restamping, but the part that will get in trouble with the criminal justice system centers around the VIN or VIN derivative.

And that is all I am saying. Playing around with the VIN derivative on any part of a vehicle may turn into a criminal issue.

Make sure you are well aware of what your particular state laws are regarding this. Federal law (18 USC 511) pretty much punts this issue to the states.

[Gene M.]

Re: 1967 Corvette L89 Convertible Warranty Book Protecto Plate Trim Tag GM orig. on E

No argument from me on that, but that isn't the point of this discussion.

The topic of this discussion is the LEGAL issues associated with defacing, altering, removing, adding, etc. any of the theft control devices that are legally required to be on a vehicle and some of the major components.

There may be many moral issues around restamping, but the part that will get in trouble with the criminal justice system centers around the VIN or VIN derivative.

And that is all I am saying. Playing around with the VIN derivative on any part of a vehicle may turn into a criminal issue.

Make sure you are well aware of what your particular state laws are regarding this. Federal law (18 USC 511) pretty much punts this issue to the states.

Ed,
Most understand messing with VIN is NOT legal. But the problem is NCRS does not see it that way and refers to it as a restoration engine. No matter how you label it the fact is it is deception by definition.
But to not be up front and start out any conversation regarding said car with a stamper by saying nothing about it or negatively making mention to it is just as bad as saying it is original. It seems that stampers as they change hands all the sudden become original. It pisses me off as a judging chairman when I have to deal with an owner when my judges makes the call under those situations.

But as per criminal issue, I think someone has to make an "issue" of it to be a legal matter. Otherwise nothing is in the cross hairs........

[Tracy C.]

Re: 1967 Corvette L89 Convertible Warranty Book Protecto Plate Trim Tag GM orig. on E

The definition of deceive is to mislead by a false appearance or statement, to give a false impression, to make (someone) believe something that is not true, to cause to accept as true or valid what is false or invalid.

So why would one restamped an engine VIN to match their car for any other reason than to make it look as if it were the original giving a false appearance?

If owners want to do this, well ok. It is their car them can do as they like. But don't say it is not deception. Restoration is the art of deception, making something appear as it is not...... to deceive. Nothing wrong with doing that.

Gene, you have defined counterfeiting, not restoration with this statement. The NCRS does not condone counterfeiting and deals with it in a fairly strict manner. As a judging chairman, you should know the difference.

I agree with you that it is no fun when a we make a tough call and the owners takes issue. Getting pissed off doesn't help and is not the way to handle it.

We have a fantastic resource in rev. 8 of the Judging Reference Manual. Everything disscussed in this thread can be addressed by observing what it has to say.

tc

[Edward M.]

Re: 1967 Corvette L89 Convertible Warranty Book Protecto Plate Trim Tag GM orig. on E

Ed,
Most understand messing with VIN is NOT legal. But the problem is NCRS does not see it that way and refers to it as a restoration engine. No matter how you label it the fact is it is deception by definition.
But to not be up front and start out any conversation regarding said car with a stamper by saying nothing about it or negatively making mention to it is just as bad as saying it is original. It seems that stampers as they change hands all the sudden become original. It pisses me off as a judging chairman when I have to deal with an owner when my judges makes the call under those situations.

But as per criminal issue, I think someone has to make an "issue" of it to be a legal matter. Otherwise nothing is in the cross hairs........

I agree 100% with all of your comments.

I am just pointing out that there are legal issues associated with the VIN derivative. Those same legal issues don't apply to the engine suffix code, or other numbers that are not "theft control devices".

One thing that I have wondered about is, given the vast range of laws (everything from we don't really care to we will put you under the jail) from state to state, what would happen if a VIN derivative is stamped in a lax state, then the car is sold / transferred to a strict state, at which point the VIN stamp gets "questioned".

Let's just hope none of us ever run into this.

[Gene M.]

Re: 1967 Corvette L89 Convertible Warranty Book Protecto Plate Trim Tag GM orig. on E

Gene, you have defined counterfeiting, not restoration with this statement. The NCRS does not condone counterfeiting and deals with it in a fairly strict manner. As a judging chairman, you should know the difference.

I agree with you that it is no fun when a we make a tough call and the owners takes issue. Getting pissed off doesn't help and is not the way to handle it.

We have a fantastic resource in rev. 8 of the Judging Reference Manual. Everything disscussed in this thread can be addressed by observing what it has to say.

tc

Tracy,
You are confusing NCRS definition of counterfeiting with what the real world holds as a definition for the word deceive. And understand not everybody is straight up and truthful when untruths are disclosed such as doctored up/created VIN derivatives. Don't think for a moment that I don't understand NCRS stand on counterfeiting. Ed and others were discussing the legal/non legal aspects not counterfeiting by NCRS definition.

Believe me it is not fun dealing with an owner that does not want to face the fact that they were disclosed because of artificial VIN information on their car. Pissed off is my internal feeling, not a displayed emotion. I can say it was handled elegantly and logical so don't be alarmed.

[Tracy C.]

Re: 1967 Corvette L89 Convertible Warranty Book Protecto Plate Trim Tag GM orig. on E

Tracy,
You are confusing NCRS definition of counterfeiting with what the real world holds as a definition for the word deceive.

No confusion at all here...NCRS definition of counterfeiting matches the real world definition of the word decieve.

You are the one who defined "restoration" as "the art of deception, making something appear as it is not...... to deceive" I just thought we should clear that up.

And understand not everybody is straight up and truthful when untruths are disclosed such as doctored up/created VIN derivatives. Don't think for a moment that I don't understand NCRS stand on counterfeiting. Ed and others were discussing the legal/non legal aspects not counterfeiting by NCRS definition.

I understand the context of the legalitiy discussion. I just thought we should clear up your comment on restoration. Don't paint everyone with the same brush here Gene. If stamping a Vin derivitive on part of your car is illegal in your state..then don't do it.


Believe me it is not fun dealing with an owner that does not want to face the fact that they were disclosed because of artificial VIN information on their car.

I know all about this too Gene..Telling a good friend and fellow chapter member is his car is branded because of a fake VIN tag is no easy pill to swallow.

Pissed off is my internal feeling, not a displayed emotion. I can say it was handled elegantly and logical so don't be alarmed.

I find it difficult to sing "Kumbaya" outwardly when I'm pissed off inside...Good for you!.

My responce to your post inserted in bold text.

[Michael J.]

Re: 1967 Corvette L89 Convertible Warranty Book Protecto Plate Trim Tag GM orig. on E

And how many times does the owner offer the statement that "the engine is a restamp" prior to the NCRS judge looking at one's Corvette? Or for sale on eBay? I'll answer .... NOT

I have seen C2s advertised in auctions and at some dealers as having "an authentic looking VIN stamp on the engine pad", for instance, more than a few times. I have a restoration engine in my '67, it was sold to me as "numbers match" by the typical, well known dealer, no guarantee it was "the real deal", just "numbers match". I did not know for sure (and did not pay for a real deal) until I researched all the owners and found the place the original engine was blown and the "numbers match" engine appeared in the ownership sequence. When it was judged, I admitted the fact, made the judge feel better as he deducted for that part of the pad, but he also opined that I shouldn't just say it before judging, let the judges figure it out, that is their job. There should be no stigma attached to my car because of this, hope there isn't, but I can't always tell what judges are thinking and they all have their own opinions about cars. I am always honest about it, so obviously no intent to deceive and no fraud or counterfeiting involved.

[Gene M.]

Re: 1967 Corvette L89 Convertible Warranty Book Protecto Plate Trim Tag GM orig. on E

I have seen C2s advertised in auctions and at some dealers as having "an authentic looking VIN stamp on the engine pad", for instance, more than a few times. I have a restoration engine in my '67, it was sold to me as "numbers match" by the typical, well known dealer, no guarantee it was "the real deal", just "numbers match". I did not know for sure (and did not pay for a real deal) until I researched all the owners and found the place the original engine was blown and the "numbers match" engine appeared in the ownership sequence. When it was judged, I admitted the fact, made the judge feel better as he deducted for that part of the pad, but he also opined that I shouldn't just say it before judging, let the judges figure it out, that is their job. There should be no stigma attached to my car because of this, hope there isn't, but I can't always tell what judges are thinking and they all have their own opinions about cars. I am always honest about it, so obviously no intent to deceive and no fraud or counterfeiting involved.

You did the right thing. The entire theme of this is to share and learn about the cars, not what you can get past the system. Not always is the judges as knowledgeable as at say National level. So sharing what you know to be true about your car is a win win situation.

[Edward C.]

Re: 1967 Corvette L89 Convertible Warranty Book Protecto Plate Trim Tag GM orig. on E

I see that "Vintagesouth" on eBay just increased his price for the protecto plate to $5000.

[Edward M.]

Re: 1967 Corvette L89 Convertible Warranty Book Protecto Plate Trim Tag GM orig. on E

I guessing two years until the car appears at a judging field near you.