Hello everyone again, What are most of you using to reproduce the black phosphate finish? Can you give me product names and where I can acquire them? TIA Tony 800.837.0305
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Re: black phosphate
Tony----
I believe that Eastwood sells a "plating kit" for applying a black phosphate finish. Black phosphate is a tough finish to apply. The part, itself, has to be scrupulously clean and free of prior finishes, including black phosphate, and totally free of rust. I'd probably have to recommend that you have a plater do it. The trick with getting plating done is to get together EVERYTHING that you need plated for one trip to the plater. Usually, platers have a minimum charge, but will apply different finishes to different parts within that charge, PROVIDING THAT IT'S ALL ONE ORDER. This minimum charge can be steep---usually around $125.
The other thing to bear in mind is that black phosphate is a finish which can deteriorate rapidly when exposed to moisture and the elements. It's not like zinc, nickel, or cadmium. However, it was a lot cheaper for GM to use and black phosphate does not compromise the strength of fasteners through hydrogen embrittlement caused by other types of electroplating.
I've not found another finish which duplicates the appearance of black phosphate. However, Quanta and Paragon sell a paint which very closely duplicates the look of black OXIDE and is far more durable, particularly when baked.In Appreciation of John Hinckley -
Re: black phosphate
Tony----
I believe that Eastwood sells a "plating kit" for applying a black phosphate finish. Black phosphate is a tough finish to apply. The part, itself, has to be scrupulously clean and free of prior finishes, including black phosphate, and totally free of rust. I'd probably have to recommend that you have a plater do it. The trick with getting plating done is to get together EVERYTHING that you need plated for one trip to the plater. Usually, platers have a minimum charge, but will apply different finishes to different parts within that charge, PROVIDING THAT IT'S ALL ONE ORDER. This minimum charge can be steep---usually around $125.
The other thing to bear in mind is that black phosphate is a finish which can deteriorate rapidly when exposed to moisture and the elements. It's not like zinc, nickel, or cadmium. However, it was a lot cheaper for GM to use and black phosphate does not compromise the strength of fasteners through hydrogen embrittlement caused by other types of electroplating.
I've not found another finish which duplicates the appearance of black phosphate. However, Quanta and Paragon sell a paint which very closely duplicates the look of black OXIDE and is far more durable, particularly when baked.In Appreciation of John HinckleyComment
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Re: black phosphate
Hi Tony:
Caswellplating.com has kits that reproduce most automotive finishes, I have found them to be reliable, helpful and sell a excellent product. As joe mentioned at length, the parts must be very clean, I have blasted mine with well used media (snad or glass beads that are so used they are like powder) this has worked very well for me for many years. good luck
JerryComment
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Re: black phosphate
Hi Tony:
Caswellplating.com has kits that reproduce most automotive finishes, I have found them to be reliable, helpful and sell a excellent product. As joe mentioned at length, the parts must be very clean, I have blasted mine with well used media (snad or glass beads that are so used they are like powder) this has worked very well for me for many years. good luck
JerryComment
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Re: black phosphate
Joe gives you solid advice. For small qty plating runs (one/two or a handful of fasteners), most shops are going to laugh you out the door. They want volume (bucket loads) and when they get it, it's not unusual to have 'shrinkage' in the process (read that 'bye bye' to some of your original parts).
You're stuck with one of three alternatives:
(1) Use a look alike paint and be prepared for a minor deduct with
an experienced concours judge. (2) Find a specialty plating shop that will accommodate small volume
runs (open your yellow pages and call around). (3) Belly up to the bar and buy an Eastwood system or join/get active
in your local NCRS Chapter and find a 'mate' who's got one and
is willing to open the door and help you out. If you dive in and
buy into the system, you're looking at $100-200 in out of pocket
depending on how much chemistry (forms of plating) you opt for,
a learning curve to run the thing and get methodized, and most
likely some ancillary surface prep machinery (blast cabinet, Etc.).
In the third category, there's nothing like the ability to run off and wham/bam lay down a fresh cad, zinc, Etc. surface on that part here/there on an on-demand basis. But, to justify the expense (you'll still use a plating shop for big runs and/or exotic finishes -- chrome/dichromate) you've got to be rather serious about the hobby.
That's why the very best advice I can give you is to join your local Chapter and get active. Sharing equipment and objectives is REAL NICE. You'll often find somebody in your chapter has a 'bucket run' going where folks pool their parts to fill a plater's minimum run volume and split the cost....Comment
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Re: black phosphate
Joe gives you solid advice. For small qty plating runs (one/two or a handful of fasteners), most shops are going to laugh you out the door. They want volume (bucket loads) and when they get it, it's not unusual to have 'shrinkage' in the process (read that 'bye bye' to some of your original parts).
You're stuck with one of three alternatives:
(1) Use a look alike paint and be prepared for a minor deduct with
an experienced concours judge. (2) Find a specialty plating shop that will accommodate small volume
runs (open your yellow pages and call around). (3) Belly up to the bar and buy an Eastwood system or join/get active
in your local NCRS Chapter and find a 'mate' who's got one and
is willing to open the door and help you out. If you dive in and
buy into the system, you're looking at $100-200 in out of pocket
depending on how much chemistry (forms of plating) you opt for,
a learning curve to run the thing and get methodized, and most
likely some ancillary surface prep machinery (blast cabinet, Etc.).
In the third category, there's nothing like the ability to run off and wham/bam lay down a fresh cad, zinc, Etc. surface on that part here/there on an on-demand basis. But, to justify the expense (you'll still use a plating shop for big runs and/or exotic finishes -- chrome/dichromate) you've got to be rather serious about the hobby.
That's why the very best advice I can give you is to join your local Chapter and get active. Sharing equipment and objectives is REAL NICE. You'll often find somebody in your chapter has a 'bucket run' going where folks pool their parts to fill a plater's minimum run volume and split the cost....Comment
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Re: black phosphate
Tony,
One thing you may want to try is gun blue. You can get it in small quantities at K-mart. For best results, beadblast the part well, then apply the blue by dipping the part or liberally coating it with a q-tip. Let chemical work for about a minute, then rinse it off the part using carb cleaner or mineral sprits. You may need to brush or wipe the surface to remove any scale that may have developed during the blue application. Next, liberally coat the surface with WD-40 & let dry.
The trick to a good finish is an ultra clean surface. You need to avoid touching the part after blasting because of the oils on your hands. I usually reapply the WD-40 after a day or so.
Hope this helps,
Fred OComment
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Re: black phosphate
Tony,
One thing you may want to try is gun blue. You can get it in small quantities at K-mart. For best results, beadblast the part well, then apply the blue by dipping the part or liberally coating it with a q-tip. Let chemical work for about a minute, then rinse it off the part using carb cleaner or mineral sprits. You may need to brush or wipe the surface to remove any scale that may have developed during the blue application. Next, liberally coat the surface with WD-40 & let dry.
The trick to a good finish is an ultra clean surface. You need to avoid touching the part after blasting because of the oils on your hands. I usually reapply the WD-40 after a day or so.
Hope this helps,
Fred OComment
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Re: black phosphate
What is exactly 'gun blue', sounds interesting and I would like to find something similar in my country. Thanks Roberto NCRS #30019 RMCComment
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Re: black phosphate
What is exactly 'gun blue', sounds interesting and I would like to find something similar in my country. Thanks Roberto NCRS #30019 RMCComment
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Re: black phosphate
Jack, you and Joe mention the Eastwood system (I have their catalog). How it compare in the judging events? Detectable? Saludos desde Argentina! Roberto NCRS #30019 RMCComment
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Re: black phosphate
Jack, you and Joe mention the Eastwood system (I have their catalog). How it compare in the judging events? Detectable? Saludos desde Argentina! Roberto NCRS #30019 RMCComment
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Re: black phosphate
Tony and NCRS Members:
1. The black phospate plating process is a rather complex process. Cleaning the parts before plating is important. Controlling the time submerged and the temperature of the chemicals during plating is also very important in getting good results.
2. Because of environmental issues, the black phosphate process is not used much today. Many commercial platers only accept work in large batches. There are some specialty platers that do good black phosphate plating work in small batches, you can usually find these listed in a publication like Hemmings. Also, local shops that do plating of aircraft components and fasteners will sometimes take small batch black phosphate jobs and do a credible job.
3. My experimentation with, and observation of other results, using the Eastwood kit resulted in mediocore replications of true black phosphate plating.
4. OEM Paints in Escondido, CA produces a paint in an Aerosol can that is a very good reproduction of the black phosphate plating process. While it is not a perfect reproduction of the original plating, it has the advantage of being much more durable than the original plating. You can buy it direct, 760-747-2100, Website www.oempaints.com , part number 21010. Also, I believe Paragon is a reseller of some of the OEM Paint Products.Comment
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Re: black phosphate
Tony and NCRS Members:
1. The black phospate plating process is a rather complex process. Cleaning the parts before plating is important. Controlling the time submerged and the temperature of the chemicals during plating is also very important in getting good results.
2. Because of environmental issues, the black phosphate process is not used much today. Many commercial platers only accept work in large batches. There are some specialty platers that do good black phosphate plating work in small batches, you can usually find these listed in a publication like Hemmings. Also, local shops that do plating of aircraft components and fasteners will sometimes take small batch black phosphate jobs and do a credible job.
3. My experimentation with, and observation of other results, using the Eastwood kit resulted in mediocore replications of true black phosphate plating.
4. OEM Paints in Escondido, CA produces a paint in an Aerosol can that is a very good reproduction of the black phosphate plating process. While it is not a perfect reproduction of the original plating, it has the advantage of being much more durable than the original plating. You can buy it direct, 760-747-2100, Website www.oempaints.com , part number 21010. Also, I believe Paragon is a reseller of some of the OEM Paint Products.Comment
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