C-3 A/C

[Page C.]

Re: Mid-year other "body cut" options continued

Noland Adams' book has a picture and some A O Smith info on pages 192 and 193 of his book. The bodies were shipped by train with 15 bodies per car. He states that they had interiors but the main dash section was riveted in at St Louis. Since the trim tags were installed at A O Smith, they had to know what cars had vinyl or leather seats. I believe he states that the seats were removed to help the assembly line at St. Louis and reinstalled futher down the line. Another item that would be known is tinted windows. The C60 air cond cars had all windows tinted, others had only the windshield tinted and some had all clear windows. I suppose the A/C could have been added at St Louis but it sure would have been easer to do the cut outs before the nose was installed. Since the were shipped with the hoods installed you would think that they had to have a core support to support the inter-fenders and hold the hood and the A/C core support is different. Also small and big block supports are different.

Page Campbell

[Louis R.]

Re: Mid-year side exhaust continued

First have you looked at a real side pipe car. The brackets in the sill area of the cage are not cut out later they were never there. Second the lower edges of the side pipe cage is notched. This wasnt ground out it was sheared as part or this parts manufacture. Has any one tried to modify their car to look like a side pipe car. I did and it is a lot of work. A/C cars were also specialy made. The inner driver side fender is different than the others since the battery is removed through it. This was not done after assembly. I had an A.O Smith A/C Coupe. Since the cars were painted before shipping A.O smith had to know what options ere to be in the car.

[Craig S.]

Re: Mid-year side exhaust continued

Lou - I agree with you about AOS needing the build info - I have a 67 C60 coupe and as you state the battery comes through the left front inner fender, and is obvioulsly mounted on the drivers side vs passenger side. My car does have the factory side pipes, but, unfortunately, they were definitely not installed at the factory and the build sheet proves it. The question still looms if AOS did or didn't produce side pipe cars, and if they didn't do it for some other reason....Craig

[John Lolli]

Re: Mid-year side exhaust continued

Lou

Good response. Please remember this thread discussion on sidepipe exhaust was in regard to A O Smith cars. Yes, I have seen "original" St Louis siepipe cars and yes I was aware that the rocker panel brackets on St Louis sidepipe cars were left off and not cut or ground off. Again please note that this thread was dealing with A O Smith cars. All that being said, I have not been able to find a real good way of definitively viewing the bird cage cutouts that you mention. I have tried to look along the lower body under the car from the front for the notches (from several angles and areas around front). Perhaps you could explain a better way for me to see them. Now, I have not viewed an original sidepipe A O Smith car as yet. I am not saying they dont exist. I am only saying that I have not seen one first hand.

john lolli

[Wayne W.]

Re: AO Smith an AC

Lou, I agree with the basic premise that AC cars were built knowing that they were to be equipped with AC. But I have a problem with the generalization that all AO Smith cars were so done. I have seen AO Smith bodies that definitely had been modified to AC. If they needed one for some reason they did not hesitate to modify a body. It wasnt that hard to do. The innerfender cutout and is easily done after assembly and frankly I think it probably was anyway. It certainly was done after the front end was assembled. As for whether any AO Smiths were equipped with Side Exhaust, I have never actually surveyed that issue, but as easy as that modification obviously is I think that it would be reasonable to assume that it was probably done on occasion.

[Mike M.]

On original side pipe cars you should be able...

to view the "J-clips" from the front and between the frame and the recessed chamber area of an original pipe. Alterations and/or repo pipes do not coincide in this fashion.

[John Lolli]

Thanks Mike for the info (NM) *NM*

[Louis R.]

Re: AO Smith an AC

First the cutout in the inner fender is not just a cut out the edges are molded to fit the panel that is bolted in as well as a gasket. This was not done after. Second It is not an easy job to modify the cage after construction and bonding the body, to make the car look like a Side Pipe car. I did everything to my 66 except notch the lower cage to allow for the different U nuts used on a side pipe car. The fiberglass is tight to the cage in this area and makes it very difficult to grind or file the notches. It is also difficult to remove the rocker panel clips that are spot welded without having any signs of their ever being there.

[Wayne W.]

Re: AO Smith an AC

Lou, It is not my intention to get into a shouting match with you on this one, but maybe you had better go inspect some originals closely. The innerfenders are cut out with a saw. The edges are not moulded and smooth. They are rough and jagged. They even sometimes cut through the rear portion of the lower filler seal. The seal on the battery panel is glued to the panel there is nothing on the innerfender itself just the cutout and drilled holes. When I said the Sidepipe conversion was easy, I meant that it was easy for them to do on the line. Remember they didnt have to do it for the judges. All they really had to do was the cutouts, yank a piece of rubber, hack a few brackets, and rig a couple of attachment nuts. You know, like every body else does. It would have taken all of a couple of minutes. Again I am not saying that it happened, but from what I have seen of factory modefications over the years, it is certainly possible and very probable.

[Craig S.]

Re: AO Smith an AC

Lou and Wayne - I happen to have a 67 L79 KH car that was A.O. Smith built, and I have the original tank sticker. I have taken two of Al Grenning's classes at Bloomington on Mid Year documentation, and have compared my car to his notes and handouts for consistency. What is clear is that indeed the interior related options are shown twice on the build sheet - once in the standard way as in St. Louis, and a second option duplication on the build sheet with designations for A.O. Smith for the interior anomolies needed for production of the body. Items such as my power windows, the glass tinting, the radio, etc, as there are all ECL related differences. Here is a run down of my tank sticker as I look at it:

8STD TM (black vinyl trim) 02L79AA (350 V8 Turbofire) 02C60AN (4 Season Air Cond) 02G81EA (Positraction Axle 355R) 02M20AA (4 spd transmission) 02P92AA (775X15X2 ply wsw) 02U69AC (PB Am/FM Radio)

All of this is at the top of the build sheet. Then, the comfort and con section has duplicattion of applicable items for the interior. Al explained in the class all of the codes with a "Y" in the 3rd digit are for A.O. Smith only cars to give them build information on the interior. Here are the next block of codes:

02A01AB (Tinted Glass) 02A31AA (Power Windows) 02K19FE (GM Air Injection Reactor) 02N40AN (Power Steering) 02Y60AB (Tinted Glass) 02Y62AA (Power Windows) 02Y66AM (4 season air cond) 02Y73AC (PB AM/FM Radio) 02Y90AA (Silver Pearl) 02Y99YA (Corvette Spt Cpe)

I hope this formats OK when I post, it is all aligned in my data entry field. Note how A.O.Smith has created YXX codes that differ from the St Louis RPO codes but the ECL suffixes match exactly. Also note how all the interior or body content related options are stipulated so they can be built correctly, even though different. Also, on AOS cars, the ECL codes are NOT on the trim plate as on St. Louis cars. Al has a copy of my build sheet for his records as he was very interested due to the nature of some of the unique options on my car such as the K19 AIR. I believe that this proves that these modifications were done in Ionia, MI before shipment to St. Louis. However, none of this proves or disprove s whether side pipe cars were produced in Ionia, but I am reasonably certain that there were discussions in the class stating they weren't, but again, that doesn't prove anything. Hope everyone finds this information of interest.....Craig

[Craig S.]

Re: AO Smith an AC

Well, I tried to format the info in a line, so much for the attempt. At least it's all there!.....Craig

[Wayne W.]

Re: AO Smith an AC

Craig, Thanks for the great information. I totally agree that as a rule that they knew what the options should be and built them accordingly at AO Smith. I also have an AO Smith A/C coupe and my build sheet looks similar to yours. However this fact does not preclude the possibility that some were modified as needed. I know that I have seen a few Smith cars that were AC modified but unfortunately didnt do any documentation. It will be something to watch for, maybe I can find another.

[Louis R.]

Re: AO Smith an AC

This is my last comment it was not my intention to get into an argument.

By the way my 66 was an original A.O Smith A/C Coupe.