Over restoration

[Dave F.]

Re: Definition of "factory tolerance"??

Michael,

Trust me - I appreciate the distinction made between design intent and factory performance. Guess I was speaking more to the hypothetical, and the off chance that an example of perfect fit actually exists. Then my mind wandered into if tolerance is a range between perfect and maximum deviation, and no points are deducted if maximum deviation is not exceeded, then why can't perfect be treated the same way?

I was actually hoping someone would chime in with a claim to own such a rarity. I really don't believe a perfect "body fit" C3 or older Corvette exists! I took a new '68 off the showroom floor literally, and had it back to the dealer over 15 times in the next 6 months due to poor quality issues.

I respect your perspective, as well as those who prefer getting the car as good as possible. Since my current project has already received "benefit" of a previous owner's preference for fit and finish, my course has already been set unless I rip panels apart and re-assemble them with the same love and care that St. Louis did in June 1968.....That is unless all previous owners did nothing, and I just happened to wind up with of those "rarities"

Dave

[Dave F.]

Re: Definition of "factory tolerance"??

Oh yeah, I noticed that myself. Now, am I to believe that if I were lucky enough to have a car that uniformly follows those tolerances given in the AIM, I possibly would receive point deductions for being "over-restored"?? Or am I just being a PITA for asking the question?

[Michael H.]

Re: Definition of "factory tolerance"??

Thanks Dave. It probably sounded like I was directing my ranting at you but actually, it was supposed to sound more like I was addressing the masses. Sorry. You made several good points and I agree with them.

Michael

[Michael H.]

Re: Definition of "factory tolerance"??

Duke,

That's exactly right. You and I both know that this was almost never a reality tho. Just a design dimension to shoot for. We both had opportunity to see this first hand as we both bought new Corvettes in the early 60's. Amazing how bad some fit but we never complained. It didn't look bad to me when I was sitting inside, going 130 MPH down some back road.

[Dave F.]

Re: Definition of "factory tolerance"??

Hey Michael - don't worry. Didn't cross my mind that you were directing your thoughts anywhere but the masses. Just having fun figuring out what I should expect if I ever go for flight judging. I consider this to be good fodder for most members, especially newer ones.

[Patrick H.]

Re: Over restoration

Come and visit my Bowtie 72 anytime....

Actually, one of the reasons I like the car is its great (for St. Louis-applied) paint. The doors fit well, but the hood has its usual C3 issues.

Patrick

[Michael H.]

Re: Definition of "factory tolerance"??

David,

In a way, I think we are all trying to say the same thing. A new Corvette could have rolled out either way. Near perfect or horrible. (like my new 64)

Years ago, when I judged Bloomington Gold, I always tried to ponder the question before marking the sheet, "COULD IT HAVE LEFT THE PLANT THAT WAY? I think that became one of the most accurate judging tools of all. David Burroughs later added, "WOULD GM HAVE SOLD IT THAT WAY'? The answer was almost always, yes.

If any item falls within that range, it has to be given 100% credit on the judging sheet and I believe this is the part that a lot of people don't understand. The car may not look like any of the other cars on the field that day but if the judge feels that it's "possible" it was produced that way, he must give full credit.

Michael

[Duke W.]

Re: Definition of "factory tolerance"??

Especially when you consider the screwup in the coupe roof panel die reported by Noland Adams. No wonder the doors never fit!

The body on my SWC was probaby about "average" when I took all the removeable panels off. Some how when I put them back on they all were well within AIM gap dimensions.

I have not idea why. I guess it was just blind luck.

Duke

[Charlie P.]

Re: Definition of "factory tolerance"??

Speaking for the year '71, the AIM gives an acceptable dimensional range for the panel gaps, and a +/- measurement from flush for adjacent panel height matching. The JG leaves out the gap dimensions, and just gives tolerances, based on the range divided by two (I don't think that is of any use). In any event, my 7,000 mile '71 panel gaps are GAPING in some areas, and inconsistent. No way do they conform to the AIM.

In the context of Roy Sinor's article in the Restorer, under Component Fit Over-Restoration, I believe that "dimensions that exceed factory dimensions" means gaps that are BETTER than would be expected, i.e, gaps that are superior to typical factory fit.

My experience so far in being Flight Judged is that poor panel fit-worse than factory specs- is expected, and not an issue. I suspect that very narrow, very consistent gaps are what raises eyebrows.

[Roy B.]

Re: Definition of "factory tolerance"??

I think the answer that every one expressed is correct , but lets again be real. As the prices keep going up on our Corvettes the "quality" of the restored Corvette goes up. For those that can afford it ( shop cost is what $75,000 or more). We now see more and more trailered judged Corvettes each year and fewer non trailered . I'm talking C1 and C2's. Give it a few more years and that is all you will see going for the flight and Duntov awards. At NCRS meets, I see fewer and fewer driven C1's any more and C2's will go the same way. What do most people goggle over? a trailered Corvette or a driven Corvette.
I think people need to re-think ( the word hobby is seldom used any more).
Yes I know I'm a pain in the A*&S over this point , but am I the only one????

[Rob M.]

Re: Definition of "factory tolerance"??

Just a new years eve problem to think about (with a glass of Champagne in our hand)...

Quote: "I took a new '68 off the showroom floor literally, and had it back to the dealer over 15 times in the next 6 months due to poor quality issues.
"

If this is the case shouldn't we build in some flaws on which the car would fail during PV and/or flight judging since how the car left the factory should be the standard ????

[Dick W.]

Re: Definition of "factory tolerance"??

Patrick, Murphy will add the flaws after the PV starts.

[Dave F.]

Re: Definition of "factory tolerance"??

Rob,

Now, that's the spirit!! Let's have a headlight not go back down, or a wiper panel partially open and stay - then stand back and say "That's way the factory did it"!!

[Larry P.]

Re: Definition of "factory tolerance"??

When I was in the airplane building business we had a fear of "A negative sum of adverse tolorances". I like to think the general could have created a car that had a "positive sum of adverse tolorances" and I ended up with that car.
But will a judge buy it?
Larry

[Warren F.]

Re: Definition of "factory tolerance"??

I agree with Charlie, about the '71's body fitment issues, mine is an original as well. Hood/grille/wiper door fitment is the worse on mine.

In a Corvette News issue for the 1971 year, there is an extensive article touting how the quality of the new model Corvette (1971) has been vastly improved over the previous years!

Can you imagine that !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!..........unbelievable.