63 F.I./JG question

[Alan Drake]

Re: Vac Advance Fitting, air meter stamping?

While everyone is looking at 63 FI's, I have a question on my air meter.
Just in front of the 90 fitting for the vacuum advance is a flat area - the same area with the black "y" shown on Michael's picture posted at 10:54am. My air meter has a stamping of "141"; anyone know what that's all about? Its a 375 unit.
Thaks

[John D.]

Re: 63 F.I./JG question

Michael,I think I have an answer to the fitting problem and a lot of other problems that are making the DB less than it's original intention.
When I was given the assignment of conducting a seminar for judging fuel injections for the 2003 convention in Hershey, Pa I was given a guide line to follow. My friend Bill Sangrey ran the seminar and policed it to insure that the audience and yours truly adhered to the program and it applies today and forever on the discussion board. Here is the scoop. I was asked to talk about what was TYPICAL, what was NOT TYPICAL, CONFORMITY, FINISHES, etc. If we use this guideline we will have less confusion, less arguing, less putting each other down, and less posts on one subject. As far as the fitting goes the silver fitting may exist but it is not typical of mass production. The brass fitting exists but was only used on some of the earlier units. The blackend fitting was used because it was a government issued spec ed fitting. Gail Parsons told me that he was well aware of the black fitting and felt that Rochester Products got a deal on the fittings from government issue. After all they only needed a few thousand fittings so it appears that the blackened fittings were used. I have removed 100's of these over the 40 plus years and have seen a lot of black threads and black insides of the things. Grant you that brass turns to a dark color but not as dark as we would like. Recap: Black was typical of most of the production, silver was not typical but was at best used in low volume, brass existed also. Having done my share of seminars I learned never to use the word ALL, NEVER, ALWAYS. I also learned not to say the word WRONG because INCORRECT is more polite to the car owner. Thanks for the help on my car also. I certainly appreciate it. John DeGregory

[Michael H.]

Re: 63 F.I./JG question

I have to disagree on two points. One, I've been playing around with these units since 1962 and I vividly remember these fittings being silver, at least in most cases, when new. Also, there are a lot of great pic's of new 63's that clearly show the silver color on this fitting. It's certainly possible that some were black but I definitely feel this is not true for the majority. I'll try to post more pic's later this evening.

Also, the fitting was NOT a product of Rochester, or even supplied by Rochester, so I don't understand how Gail Parsons concluded that Rochester installed gov issued fittings. This part was installed on the St. Louis assy line as the engine was traveling down the engine line. It had nothing to do with Rochester.

[John D.]

Re: Most Incredible Original On The Planet....

Michael, Notice that the low mileage car seems to have a nonconforming chrome fuel line. Can you expand your pic to see more of the line. Also would be interested in the fuel filter fittings as I am of the believe that these fittings were not typically chrome but were in fact nickel.
Notice the unit has blackened fillister head screw and washers which are the norm. The brass T fitting is appearing to take on a rosette color which is a nice affect. The vacuum advance line does not appear to have the white stripe which is so common on the restos today. Would like to see if the vacuum advance is a two piece 201 stylel which are very rare today. You have a collection of wonderful photos. Why don't you and Bob J. write a book with pics in it. I am sure it would go over great. I have watched you over the years and you have posted many hundreds of '63 photos. Please think about this. Big money in books also. You are a great writer so it would be a natural. Thanks, John

[Mike McKown]

Re: 63 F.I./JG question

The 40 years old picture. My vacuum advance fitting is gray. The pcv is blackened. You can see brass through skinned places on the black pcv fitting.

[John D.]

Re: 63 F.I./JG question

Michael, so you feel that the pcv valve fitting was not installed by Rochester but was installed at the assembly line. So that could explain the various finishes. Now we are beginning to shed some light on this mystery. Meanwhile I can recall putting a few silver fittings on way back and getting critized. I have one year up on you in that I started in 1961. Think we need a lot more pics of original silver fittings to convince people that they were typical as most think they were blackened. Government spec ed black fittings must have been bought cheep by GM and not RP. Maybe several suppliers of same fitting which plumbers call street el. Didn't Joe Lucia say there were at least three suppliers of say hardware, etc.? Where is Joe anyhow? He should be in on this as it's his cup of tea. Are you going to supply Carlton with this new unearthed info for the new upcoming JM? I am sure he would appreciate it. Back to work, John

[Michael H.]

Re: Most Incredible Original On The Planet....

John,

Not sure if I understand what you mean by "non conforming chrome fuel line"? All 63 FI cars built some time after Nov or Dec of 62 would have had a chrome fuel line, both from the fuel pump to filter and from the filter to the fuel meter. This is a Feb 63 build so the chrome line is correct.

The original fuel filter fittings on post December 62 built cars had a low quality chrome finish. Early cars, built from SOP to about late Nov or Dec, would have had zincad finish fittings, as would the fuel lines.

This car does have it's original black GF-90 fuel filter but the angle of the pic prevents us from seeing the entire fitting at the outlet end of the filter so we can't tell of it has the grooved hex. I suspect it does not but that's just a guess.

The black fillister head screws and washers on the main control diaphragm cover are typical of all 63-65 units.

As for the white stripe hose that you mention, I'm certain that NO 63-67's used white striped vacuum advance hoses, or any other engine hoses for that matter. I have no idea where that notion came from. (well, actually, I do have an idea where it MAY have come from) (I feel another debate coming from the 67 435 crowd)

I haven't inspected the "201" vacuum advance unit on this car but I'm sure it's the original.

I've been taking detail pictures of and collecting info from unrestored Corvettes for well over 30 years but I have absolutely no talent for writing or displaying pictures. Zero. I'm probably the least organized person you will ever have the displeasure of knowing. Jorjorian is running a close 2nd. I've seen his garage. Looks more organized than mine, but not much better.

[Robert Jorjorian]

Re: Most Incredible Original On The Planet....

John, the car pictured had 5,350 miles on it. We took the picture, that is posted, after judging it at Bloomington in 1980.It still has a black no notch fuel filter,black 590 pcv valve and RP foil tag on enrichment cover.
I think you have an excellent idea having Michael Hanson write a book devoted to 1963.I think Michael Hanson is without question the most knowledgeable person on 1963 Corvette originality.Good luck at Boston,Robert

[John D.]

Re: Most Incredible Original On The Planet....

Michael, Wanted to see if you had a larger view to check out the chrome fuel line because it didn't appear to have a typical bend. But I am sure it does.
Does it still have the original black fuel filter on it w/no notches? Glad to here that fuel filter fitting were not shiny chrome but low grade chrome which to me appear to be nickel. What about the chrome fuel line to fuel pump fitting. Does this car have a brass fitting or a low grade chrome one. I am confused on this issue and don't know which to use so went for the cheep chrome one as it matched the filter fittings. Do you like brass dull chrome? Thanks again, John

[John D.]

Re: Most Incredible Original On The Planet....

Robert, Thanks for the nice comments. I'll give you some feedback on my '63 after the Boston area show. Now if we can get the right color fittings on show is a winner. Heard a rumor that you are running for an offical NCRS job. Wish you good luck on your venture. You have been as asset to the hobby for as long as I can remember. Your friend Michael has helped me in so many ways also Take care and thanks again. Jr.

[Michael H.]

Re: Most Incredible Original On The Planet....

John,

The early/late 63 fuel line/fitting story is a bit confusing.

From start of 63 production to probably some time in November, no car had chrome fuel lines or fittings. All used non chrome plated lines from the fuel pump to the filter and from the filter to the carb/FI. Also included in the non chrome items, but slightly off topic, would be the fuel filter bracket, oil filler tube and cap, dip stick handle, FI balance tube etc etc. The fittings at the fuel filter would have been zincad.

Cars built after November would have had chrome fuel lines from pump to filter and from filter to carb/FI, and chrome fuel line fittings at both ends of the fuel filter. The fuel line fitting at the fuel meter remained zincom for the duration of 63-65 FI. Most of the other previously mentioned under hood items would have been switched to chrome at around that same time.

I do have a larger view of the previously posted pic and it shows a very original looking fuel line from filter to fuel meter.

The chrome on the fuel filter fittings was shinny, but the surface under the plating was not polished prior to plating so the chrome looks just a bit frosty, but not at all dull like zincad.

[John D.]

Re:fuel filter fittings.. 63 too 65 FI

Michael, Thanks for posting such a detailed explanation of plating on '63 FI's. One clarification comes to mind though. I've seen a large number of variations on the plating of the GF-90 fuel filter fittings. You mentioned that the chrome appeared to be low grade frosted chrome. That may very well be fact and numerous photos could substiate frosted chrome. Since you and I have been playing with FI's forever have you see nickel fittings. I have collected several of these over the years. Nickel plating would be superior to chrome fittings for one big reason. The chrome flakes off and gets in the FI or carb. So many times I have seen the spill valve screen with bits of chromium flakes.
Two unrestored '63 fuel cars that I recently looked at had old nickel fittings that were rather dull. One had a black filter w/no notches. Offered new shiny black one for a trade but got a smile instead. Doesn't hurt to try! Thanks again, John