Engine Stamps

**John W.** · May 10, 2000, 09:36 PM

Re: Engine Stamps *TL*

Dale,

You provide some great food for thought. I will give you my two cents worth with no guarantee that it is even worth two cents.

The rational of re stamping, stamping, or otherwise dealing with NOM and the judging issues involved is nonsense. The engine block is the only part large or small that is deemed off limits by NCRS Standards. I can re stamp the tag on the generator, the radiator, the cooling expansion tank or any other part on the car and be applauded because I did a nice job of restoring that part. I can replace it with a reproduced part that looks and feels like the original and get full credit, even if it is a known reproduction. I do that to the block, and I am committing fraud?

The only reason that people would commit fraud by doing this is because of the unwarranted value that the NCRS has given to one tiny item of the 10,000 parts it takes to make a car.

If engine blocks were judged just as any other part on the car was judged, then there would be no fraud, because there would be no extreme premium assigned to that part. It would not hold enough value to make it worth the effort to fool the experts.

For the record, I have a NOM 1962 Corvette that I have shown at many National and Chapter Meets over the last 25+ years. It is not re stamped.

John

**David K.** · May 10, 2000, 10:29 PM

Re: Engine Stamps

I truly have to agree.I remember real well when this all got started,If you had an already near perfect car, but the engine had been changed either by abuse or under warranty, you had a definite second rate machine.I actually sold my first car for that reason.Then the matrix system came out,and in my opinion helped encourage car ownership and most of all restoreing otherwise excellent cars. It seemed there was a period of time when people forgot what these cars were all about,fun.Engines were blown or hotrodded.Then all of a sudden we had more original engine C1 and C2 in say 1980 then in 1970.I think it is great we seem to be headed in the direction where actually restoreing these ( 2nd rate cars) is encouraged not discouraged.

**George Daina** · May 10, 2000, 10:32 PM

Varooom....heavy, & deep stuff, man.....

but I am puzzled. Why cocern yourself and get yer dander all rilled up over something that does not affect you. Let's look at a couple of scenarios.

I. You like this particular car and you're thinking of buying it, but it is obvious that the engine has been restamped. What do you do? A. Say adios amigo and ride off into the sunset B. Ask the owner for a plausible explanation why the restamp

1. Owner says original block was decked, therefore restamped

2. Owner says original block long gone, got a replacement to be a numbers matching car.

You have a choice, buy or walk away. If you buy, obviously restamp is no big deal, if you walk away, let someone else worry about restamp.

II. Same scene, you like the car, check the stamp pad, convinced it's the real McCoy, but it isn't. The block has been restamped to such a high degree, you're fooled, the judges are fooled, everyone is fooled.

You buy the car, take home a bunch of awards, years later you sell the car at a nice profit based on the awards the car has won.

Question: Did the restamping hurt you? Remeber, you don't know the block has been restamped.

The way I see it, what you don't know, won't hurt you, and what you know you have a choice, buy or walk away, and in that case it won't hurt you either.

**Joe L.** · May 10, 2000, 10:45 PM

Re: Engine Stamps

John-----

I agree with you 100% and I couldn't have said it any better. This whole thing with engine stampings almost borders on a religious discussion with a lot of folks. It boggles my mind that grown men and women can get so fanatical over this issue.

The fact is that IT IS NOT ILLEGAL to stamp, restamp, double-stamp, or triple-stamp an engine. These numbers are NOT USED for registration purposes. Even the VIN-derivative is just that; a derivative or PART of the VIN number. If it were illegal to remove these numbers, then no machinest could legally surface an engine block. Our jails would be too full of machinests to accomodate any murderers or rapists.

In California, and I'm sure many other states, it is NOT ILLEGAL to even restore a VIN tag to a car as long as it is done under the supervision of the DMV. It is illegal to CHANGE a VIN number, but it is not illegal to RESTORE one. Now some folks might argue that if you can RESTORE a VIN, you could also CHANGE one. Just like you can walk into a bank to make a withdrawal, which is legal, or rob it, which is illegal.

**Jeff** · May 10, 2000, 10:56 PM

Dale, I know you're just stirring the pot but...

...here's my take. Parts is parts. No one gives a hoot about replacing every other part in their car with NOS. In fact, they brag about it. Loudly. Most guys don't restore anything, just replace with "NOS only".

So what's the big deal with the engine? It's really just other parts or more correctly, one part, the block. (No one ever asks, "Is that you original crankshaft?") Where do you draw the line? Is it better to have a new unstamped block and go ahead and stamp it than to have an overbored original motor? Anyone really think a 283, bored .125 over but with an original pad is a a good thing? How about your original block with 8 sleeves, is that better than a fresh block and good stamp job?

If you think about it, engines are common to a number of cars and even trucks but the frame and body are what make a Corvette truly a Corvette and not an Impala or pickup truck . As I have said, to me, a no-hit body and a mint, rust pit-free frame are much more essential and desirable than *the* original motor because, as you say, you can find an unstamped block and make a *correct* motor or a *numbers matching* motor.

As for what is right or wrong? Who could ever know that? Is it right that some of us have half a dozen collector cars while some people don't have food? What is right isn't necessarily what is legal and the fact that something is illegal doesn't mean it's wrong. Legal and illegal are arbitrary standards that vary from border to border and right and wrong really just turn on intent. We have made an arbitray decision to obsess over 2 square inches of engine pad.

The answer is they are both right, in their own right. No one just tosses out their original motor but once it's gone the car doesn't have to be doomed to second class status. The fact that the OM is gone and has been undetectably replaced is now just as much a part of its history as the fact that an OM car's has never been replaced. Very different but both potentially "right". Whether or not an individual tries to pass something off as something it's not is a matter for the parties involved in that transaction and possibly for the appropriate authorities but it's not, IMO, an issue for the NCRS.

To me, as long as a particular part accurately represents the manufacturing techniques and standards of the period to observers, that is right. A correctly dated and stamped block of the right casting number does that. A block sanded body doesn't, a fiberglass air cleaner doesn't, a smooshy repro emblem doesn't. When uninitiated folks look at those types of substitutions, they think that the cars were manufactured and produced in a way that they weren't. They, mistakenly, are given the impression that certain technologies that didn't yet exist were employed or vice versa. That, to me ,is misrepresentation but searching out a totally correct block and stamping it so that it is undetectable from what it replaced is not. I think the important aspect of keeping the cars accurate is that casual observers not be misled. If potential buyers or investors are misled that's their problem, let them hire an expert to check the car out beforehand or hire a lawyer afterwards.

But, fortunatley, soon none of this will matter. The farther we get from the date of manufacture, the less all that stuff matters, the more the cars become relics rather than drivers, the less it all matters. I was surprised to hear several of the TF entrants at Montauk speak openly about the fact that their cars had correct but stamped blocks.

What will matter will be "conserved" cars. Unrestored cars, whether perfect or not, will be appreciated for what they are. Imperfection and patina will be given their due, placing their value above those of restored cars which will all eventually be lumped together as "rebuilts" regardless of whether they have an original motor or not as long as the replacement block is not detectable as a 'stamper'.

As for your sex life, you'll be fine if you just concentrate. Your partner is an unnecessary distraction.

JP

**bill Braun #33186** · May 11, 2000, 06:03 AM

Isn't the replacement engine...

kinda like being "sort of" a virgin or "almost" pregnant? The perceived need for an original engine is born from the value placed upon it at judging. Still, I think it is fantastic that people go the lengths they do to keep these cars original or to restore them to original - as long as they don't sell one as the other. MHO Nice to have this Board back, too.

Bill

**Tom Freeman** · May 11, 2000, 07:17 AM

Re: Engine Stamps

Let me take a different point of view just to keep things in prespective.

Several have said that the block is only one of many parts that are restored on a Vette, true true. But the block is only one of three parts that have a deritive of the VIN stamped on them from the factory. The block, the transmission case, and the frame. Could be four if you want to count the VIN tag itself. Out of thousands of parts. To me that is why that little stamp pad is so important. If the alternator, the distributor, the carb, or, or, etc, had the VIN stamped on them, then it would not be any more important then anyother part. But since there is only three (or 4) that have it then it is very important that it be there. But I am not going to get into the re-stamp issue, that has alot more issues.

tom...

**Dave - NCRS#24235** · May 11, 2000, 08:31 AM

Corvette RESTORErs and Engine Stamps

If the car is repesented as a survivor with an original engine, do not accept nonfactory pad marks. If the car is restored, go ahead and restore the pad along with everything else. We are in the Corvette RESTORER Society, so try real hard to make it look like the marks that the factory "intended" to be there. RESTORE - even if you know that your engine is original - but will be "judged" otherwise due to nonstandard marks that it came with from the factory, or a dealer rebuild. RESTORE, using another engine with a "correct" casting date to replace an "incorrect" block. That's my vote - Dave

**Dale Pearman** · May 11, 2000, 08:39 AM

Re: Engine Stamps

Nice post John. You raise several points of significance that I feel we in NCRS should address. Why in our matrix system do we assign such a heavy weight to the engine? The 61-62 scoring for horns as an example, is insignificant as is the voltage regulator when compared to the engine. I can come up with an acceptable engine a lot quicker and easier than I can horns and VR. (Those darned VR's cost as much as a bare block; sometimes more!)

Fraud is defined as intentional misrepresentation for monetary gain. (layman's terms) I guess if you lied through your teeth about a restamp but never tried to swindle anyone you'd be in the clear. What bothers me is the fact that future owners of a restamped engine Corvette will come to accept and some actually beleive that the engine is original.

A solution to this problem would be for NCRS to give full credit for restamps provided an additional "R" were added to suffix codes. YUCK! who would do it?

Now here's the essence of the restamp problem: NCRS, by virtue of it's awards, imparts an artificial value to an "item of merchantability". When sold, the added value of the transaction due to awards, is inflated and therefore the question may be asked, "Has NCRS contributed in any way to the commision of fraud"? Maybe that's why this engine stamping thing is so heavy in NCRS. Still, what about all the other items on the car? Profound considerations! Is it possible for us to publish an Ethical and Moral disclaimer in the front of our judging manuals as we do the legal disclaimer? Whats happened to all the fun involved with restoring a Corvette and fooling hell out of the judges?

Again, thanks for your post.

**Jeff** · May 11, 2000, 08:43 AM

Do you place equal importance on the other VIN..

...derivatives? Do you really glide up to every car at a show and whisper to the owner, "Original frame?" If not, you have pretty much made the point that VIN derivative or not, the engine pad gets a disproportionate amount to scrutiny and therefore, importance attached.

JP

**Dale Pearman** · May 11, 2000, 08:45 AM

Re: Varooom....heavy, & deep stuff, man.....

Here's one for you George: I know of a jim-dandy Corvette 1962 that had the block decked during a rebuild. The numbers were removed. This block was taken back to FLINT! The GM engine plant at FLINT restamped the ORIGINAL motor! Now, all you moralist crusaders can figure out that one!

TRA-LA Varoooooooooooooooooooooom!

**Dale Pearman** · May 11, 2000, 08:50 AM

Re: Dale, I know you're just stirring the pot but.

*****************LONG LIVE THE 4 STAR BOWTIE PROGRAM**************

P.S. What partner?

**Jeff** · May 11, 2000, 09:04 AM

I guess if you think it'd be ok if your squeeze...

...went back to Flint, (so to speak), and had her ex 'restamp' her every now and again, that would also be legit.

JP

**Chris H.** · May 11, 2000, 10:35 AM

Re: Engine Stamps

Perhaps the NCRS should stop judging the pad altogether. This would remove some, maybe all, of the incentive for people to "restore" the pad.

I just recently purchased a gorgeous Top Flight 396 coupe with obvious decking machine marks and "matching number" restamped pad. This car was the best condition and best running mid year car out of many that I had looked at to buy. The owner history stopped in 1985. I had know quick way to find out the story of the motor. So I had to make a choice. Do I walk away from the road scorching Top Flight car because of the stupid engine pad? Or do I buy the best running and looking car I've seen?

Engine Stamps

Engine Stamps

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