Can we talk??

[Roy B.]

Re: Surrender?!...

{{Nobody agrees with you because you refuse to acknowledge a simple fact...the allowed extinguisher is for SAFETY, and NOT for originality and/or judging.

The extinguisher is NOT A JUDGED ITEM.}}

Oh! BOY! I should not answer this but I don't remember saying it should be judged under the JM it self. Only that it would be nice to see a GM extinguisher Of that period for SHOW.

{{You lose no points for not having one. Just as free bonus points are added to the judging score .}}

Which can determine a second to a third flight Corvette, is this not true???

Sure carry a NEW one for safety if you wont! I'm not saying not to!!!

OK some Corvettes have always been a second flight Corvette, close to being a top flight but not quite =

So add a sticker, battery switch,extinguisher, drive to a meet that's fare from where you live get driven points and now you can compete with those trailer queens for the top flight award gaining extra points. Would that be considered un-fair to those trailer queen that has none or was not driven??

Look I never asked or expected any one to agree the JM be changed. Gee!! I know I'll never live that long to see the JM for 55 engine be corrected from orange to red (which 55 Car and Corvette were RED) but that's life.

And this discussion reminds me why I haven't never entered a Corvette in over 25 years but for 05, and never ask to be a judge any more tho I was many times from the start of NCRS and never again inter an article to the restorer which I did many from the start of NCRS. Then now posting accessory pic's talking about them ( just to lighten up or show another side to the corvette) getting Sh*t from not all but some people asking why I spend their time reading this junk! While not looking at what I or others have contributed to NCRS I'm not sore , upset, no hurt feelings on my side , I love what NCRS is and could be, I still make the mistake thinking like a hobbyist ,too old now and hard to change, I truly feel sad and worried where NCRS will end up, not for my sake, don't matter anymore but new comers//So lets end this mistake I asked about and move on- can you????????

[Chuck S.]

Re: Surrender?!...

Roy, you truly march to the beat of a different drummer.

At the end of the last exchange, I realized that you would never understand the organization's position on extinguisher bonus points, and should have left it there. I never had a problem with the display of the emergency kit at an NCRS event if it is on a display table, inside an unjudged car, or inside a judged car before or after judging. Seeing your accessory collection would be educational and interesting for all of us, and I encourage to show us what you have.

However...All the rest of us need is for someone with a rare part to be calling for ALL fire extinguishers in the cars to be antiques in order to get the additional judging points. How many of those emergency kits even exist?...100?...25?...fewer? This would defeat the purpose of permitting this non-original item in the car during judging...An extinguisher, ANY extinguisher, is allowed inside during judging ONLY because it is encourages owners to have a functional extinguisher in the car at all times in case of a fire emergency.

Yee-ep...Moving on...right now.

[Justin B.]

Re: Gone too far?

I feel sorry for Roy, he's been around and has been doing this for a while and trying to add some fun to this hobby. God knows the NCRS sure needs that! Bottom line: his accessories are cool, he takes his time to post them, and everyone whether they want to admit it or not looks at them. And, lets not forget ALL of the articles that he has posted in the past. He has contributed soooo much for all Corvette enthusiasts for many years. Where are the contributions from some of the critics.
Somewhere within a day or two of this post there is another post about future generation Corvette owners. I started getting into Corvettes at around 17 and I used to read all of the old Restorer magazines dating back to around 1985. They belonged to my step-father who was at the time a member. I am now 35 and probably considered a newer generation owner. Roy is making a simple statment and JUST about everyone is making a mountain out of a mole hill. From a younger generations point of view, stick by the judging books in which our fore-fathers of NCRS (including Roy) basically created but be a little more open minded at times. There should always be exceptions to some, not all, but some rules whether it be the proper bolt markings or even a block stamped a little crooked. Don't attack the good guys like Roy who is trying to make it fun. I think many things get taken out of text whether on the discussion board or on the judging field. If you want a young crowd to carry on this hobby then try to make it more enjoyable and less stressful. Damn, sometimes I think I would rather take the S.A.T.'s again or get my prostrate checked then having my car judged. Thanks Roy for your contributions through the years. You were one of my "at home" restoration school teachers with your many articles and without your contributions I would have been out in the cold many times over and over.

[Kirk McHugh]

Re: Gone too far?

To me, this should be about the inclusion of all people who enjoy vettes. So here goes!

Real simple solution:

Give up to a certain number of bonus points for original GM accessories if included in the car when judged. That way it would encourage people to include them from time to time so that everyone attending the show could see them including the judges. Let the governing board of the NCRS JM determine what would be a fair number of points to give, and how many accessories they would permit. So let's say 2 points/accessory (1 point for original item/1 point for original box) with a maximum limit of 5 accessories/judged vette for a potential of 10 additonal points (this is just an example). That lets everyone in the game. I agree somewhat with Roy, if the accessories are period GM accessories that's pretty cool! So, if I can get bonus points for driving my car to the show, why not let people get bonus points for having some cool original GM accessories in their car. I would love to see a judged vette with curb feelers and a spot light! Especially if both actually worked!!!!!

The thing I think is funniest in all of this, is we all know the first thing you thought/did when you got one of these cars - what can I change to make it go FASTER (to beat the other guy on the road) and look even BETTER (usually to attract the attention of the fairer sex)?! That was beauty of owning a muscle car!!!! FUN!

[Chris Patrick]

Re: Can we talk??

Roy, you are complicating the issue too much. On this site, you can download the judging sheets and I suggest you do.

The fire extinguisher, battery disconnect, and NCRS sticker are three extra bonus items. There is no restrictions on the judging sheet on these. So you can use your 1963 dealer extinguisher or the 2007 Wal-Mart special. The idea as many have said was first not to penalize you for having these in your car (bit difficult to hide a decent extinguisher in a midyear coupe) and to recognize the safety value by giving a few points to encourage you to have one.

I see what you are saying, too, that if you go to the trouble to find and include a Chevy dealer item, it should be worth more than a generic you can find in Pep Boys or Wal-Mart. I'd agree, except that they are not judged items.

It is hard to remember but you get something like 4500 points to start. Then they deduct points for everything that is incorrect or of lower quality. Judging is about deducting points. You don't get more points for having correct 40 year old non-DOT tires, you LOST LESS points. While it seems the same, it is a critical difference.

The safety items are added points. They are outside the deduction process.

The NCRS standards, for good or bad, are straightforward and available to any member so that it is an even and fair playing field. You know what the rules are, and they don't change from show to show.

The issue I think many really have is the impact these standards have on the rest of the world. People equate NCRS as "more valuable" and non-NCRS as "less valuable" when it comes time to buy a car. As such, the silliness that occurs to score high in Flight judging sometimes rubs off into the market place.

Three cars: Car A is a 196x coupe, one owner, driven easily only 50,000 miles in its life by its older mild-mannered owners, maintained very well, pampered throughout its life but at 11 months, it received a warranty replacement engine through no fault of the owners.

Car B is a nearly identical 196x coupe, driven hard, put up wet, blown up, wrecked, customized, and had the crap run out of it by its 10 owners in its first 8 years. Finally, it is restored with a restamped engine and looks showroom perfect.

Car C is another nearly identical 196x coupe, run hard, suffered body damage, and so on, but it retained its original engine and transmission. Then it is finally restored also, to near showroom perfection.

NCRS would probably judge Car C best, Car B next, and Car A last, with the assumption that all three looked and operated about the same.

As such, the buying public would pay highest for C, next highest for B if they know the engine is a restamp, and lowest for A because it is NOM.

Yet, which car would you rather have to own? I'd prefer A, but the public would say it is worth the least. The same is true with your accessories. While they are neat to see and learn about, the public "belief" is that they are somehow worth less because they do not count for anything in NCRS judging.

Yes, that is annoying, and it is a pain to deal with "experts" who come up to tell you this anytime one finds you, but frankly, I have had Car A a couple of times and I enjoyed them thoroughly, and would love to have them again. You can't change the system easily, and you can't change the public at all, so just ignore them and go on.

BTW, I love your accessories. I'd love to see your '55 at a show sometime. And I really enjoy you posting the pictures here. So don't think I am picking on you or opposing you.