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Starter Motor ID

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  • Henry J.
    Very Frequent User
    • November 1, 1999
    • 457

    Starter Motor ID

    Can anyone confirm the origin or original application of a starter motor having number 1107259 and assembly date 6D5 (April 5, 1966). Curiously, I cannot find this number in any of the reference books I own.

    This starter motor is on my 66 L79. The car has only 25,000 miles and is substantially original. None of the car's previous owners report the starter motor to have been changed. All of the other engine numbers agree with expectation. The engine casting date is D56 (April 5, 1966); the engine assembly date is April 13, 1966; the engine code is HT. The body build date is April 19, 1966.

    Your help in clearing up this mystery is appreciated.
  • Bill Clupper

    #2
    Re: Starter Motor ID

    Light duty starter '66 Truck 283/327, also 194/230 "6"

    Comment

    • Henry J.
      Very Frequent User
      • November 1, 1999
      • 457

      #3
      Re: Starter Motor ID

      Thanks Bill. Now I have to figure out how this starter came to be on my car!

      Comment

      • Bill Clupper

        #4
        Re: Starter Motor ID

        What's the date on the starter?

        Comment

        • Henry J.
          Very Frequent User
          • November 1, 1999
          • 457

          #5
          Re: Starter Motor ID

          Bill, the starter is dated April 5, 1966.

          Comment

          • Bill Clupper

            #6
            Re: Starter Motor ID

            You might want to check if any other owners of cars built on the same day as your have the same starter. The Corvette plant was right next to a Truck plant, and shortages were not unheard of, nor generally were they allowed to stop the production line if suitable replacement parts could be obtained. There were engineering approvals "Deviations" which provided paperwork for this, but i doubt they will ever be found today.

            Comment

            • Henry J.
              Very Frequent User
              • November 1, 1999
              • 457

              #7
              Re: Starter Motor ID

              Thanks Bill. Your suggestion is a good one. As soon as you pointed out the "truck service" origin of my starter, I too considered the possibilty that it came from the St. Louis truck plant in response to a parts shortage on the Corvette production line. Speaking to other Corvette owners with H19 build date cars will definitely help to clarify the situation.

              Comment

              • John H.
                Beyond Control Poster
                • December 1, 1997
                • 16513

                #8
                Re: Starter Motor ID

                The adjacent St. Louis assembly plant in 1966 also had a Passenger Line that built Impala/Caprice, a Truck Line that built 10-20-30-40-50-60 Series trucks and school bus chassis, and a Corvan Line that built Corvair-based drop-side forward-control pickups and delivery vans - there were more starters in that plant than Carter has pills, and I'm sure more than one of them would also have worked on a Corvette if it was necessary to keep the Corvette line running. That's what "Resident Engineers" did - find substitutions that would work and write "local deviations" when necessary (none of which were ever documented outside the plant).

                Comment

                • Terry M.
                  Beyond Control Poster
                  • September 30, 1980
                  • 15573

                  #9
                  Re: Starter Motor ID

                  John,
                  We sometimes hear this "local deviation" speculation on the show field, a little more frequently in the bar or at the pick-up truck tailgate. How often, in your experience, did it happen for a numbered or dated component?

                  I'm not asking for specific numbers of deviations, that level of detail is obviously lost to history. Nor am I asking about a fastener, but rather about a differential, carburetor, horn, starter or other component assembly with a number and date.

                  Something along the lines of often, sometimes, rarely or almost never is what I am looking for.

                  I apologize for putting you on the spot so publicly, but I am going to do it anyway.

                  Terry
                  Terry

                  Comment

                  • Jack H.
                    Extremely Frequent Poster
                    • April 1, 1990
                    • 9906

                    #10
                    Re: Starter Motor ID

                    Similar 'deviations' were done in our electronic plants at Texas Instruments to keep the line running. But, each WAS documented through the drawing system and sign-off authority to/through design engineering and division management was required to implement a 'TMD' (Temporary Manufacturing Deviation).

                    Are you saying there was a plant level 'guhru' who had UNILATERAL authority to change anything/everything in the drawing/control system at GM without audit trail or approval cycle? Geeze, that'd scare the *&%% out of me considering the final product had obvious threat to life, limb, property considerations....

                    Comment

                    • John H.
                      Beyond Control Poster
                      • December 1, 1997
                      • 16513

                      #11
                      Re: Starter Motor ID

                      The reality of assembly plant production (where I spent my entire career) is that supplier or transportation issues arise (or parts just get "lost" in the plant because someone from the receiving dock stored them in the wrong location and they don't get "found" until later). When a potential shortage arises, or a part is found out of spec such that it can't be used, the choice is to shut the line down and send everyone home early (and pay them for the whole day) while losing units that must be made up on overtime at a time-and-a-half labor rate, or find another part that can be used which won't compromise function or safety.

                      This is a much more carefully-considered decision today than it was in the 60's, but the response is the same; between the Production guys and the Quality/Reliability Engineers and the Resident Engineer, they find a part that can be substituted without risk to the product, put it on the operation, write a local deviation which is approved by the Resident Engineer, and document the starting and ending VIN's of the population of cars that were affected for the local files, and send a copy to the responsible design engineer. GM has always called them "Local Deviations", Chrysler calls them "Temporary Substitution Authorizations".

                      How often does (or did) this happen? Almost daily. In the 60's, nobody treated a "dated part" any differently than a non-dated part - nobody cared about dates then, and they don't today, except for MVSS-related parts where lot-control records must be kept to identify vehicle populations for potential safety or emission recall actions. A part was a part, and if it could be substituted without functional risk, it was done; just a part of normal business. All of the documentation for deviations was local at each plant, in a file drawer somewhere, written on a Xeroxed form (or typed with carbon copies), and is long gone. In the days before computers, keeping track of a constantly-changing inventory of 5,000+ part numbers per car line in every assembly plant every day was an incredible task, and local deviations for substitutions were a normal part of everyday business.

                      St. Louis Corvette was in the enviable position of having the biggest assembly plant in Chevrolet right next door, with the largest part inventory in GM to pick from if they had to find a substitute, and they did so every day.

                      Comment

                      • Terry M.
                        Beyond Control Poster
                        • September 30, 1980
                        • 15573

                        #12
                        Re: Starter Motor ID

                        John,

                        I understand dated and numbered parts were no big deal in the assembly plants. What I was trying to do is separate the smaller stuff (a different sealant, fastener or retainer installation point) from the more major assemblies that we are involved in judging.
                        From my experience on judging fields across the country local deviations didn't happen too often, but we get to see, at most, a minuscule percentage of total Corvette annual production. An of course those folks who restore cars generally "do it by the book," so we will not see the results of local deviations there. We have to depend on Bowtie cars for that, and the numbers of those cars are fewer yet.
                        Terry

                        Comment

                        • John H.
                          Beyond Control Poster
                          • December 1, 1997
                          • 16513

                          #13
                          Re: Starter Motor ID

                          Terry -

                          I understand your point completely - most deviations/substitutions were for fasteners, clips, retainers, and sealers rather than major components, as the small stuff was more likely to get lost/mis-used on the line. When Production guys found something that "worked better", they used it. This, of course, drove the Material guys crazy, as unauthorized mis-use of a part resulted in an inventory loss on one part and a gain on another, resulting in a shortage of the former vs. the Bill Of Material records for part requirements.

                          These "it works better" substitutions were constant, due to human nature at work on the line. Example from my Foreman days in the mid-60's - in the (steel car) Fisher Body/Chevrolet assembly plants, the Fisher Body Foremen (on the other side of "the wall") were on a weekly "budget" for things like gloves, aprons, sockets, bit-holders, etc. for their assigned area. Chevrolet Foremen were not, and just went to the Chevrolet tool crib and requisitioned out what they needed when the urge struck them. Fisher Body had LOTS of really neat self-drilling/self-tapping trim screws of all sizes, and Chevrolet had none like that (cost too much). Chevrolet Foremen always had boxes full of Apex magnetic bit-holders stashed away, and the Fisher guys hardly ever had enough due to their "budget" limitations.

                          Solution? I'd send my Utilityman over to the Fisher Body Trim Shop with a box of magnetic bit-holders under his arm, and he'd come back an hour or so later with a wonderful collection of hundreds of Fisher self-drilling screws in many different sizes, which my line repairmen would die for. Multiply this by a hundred every day and you'll get an idea of why we see different fasteners in the same place on different cars. The Material guys and Specs Engineers tried to stay on top of correct usages, but Production guys are really devious, and when something "works better", it gets used

                          Comment

                          • Henry J.
                            Very Frequent User
                            • November 1, 1999
                            • 457

                            #14
                            Re: Starter Motor ID

                            From what you are saying, it sounds to me that I should be happy to leave my "incorrectly numbered" starter on the car if I believe it to be originally installed.

                            Comment

                            • Terry M.
                              Beyond Control Poster
                              • September 30, 1980
                              • 15573

                              #15
                              yes *NM* *TL*

                              Terry

                              Comment

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