Help!!!

[Doug L.]

I'm registered to have car judged at Winter Regional starting tomorrow. Last night I was checking operational things, headlights opening / closing, radio, heater fan, washer pump, etc. Tonight when I went to load the car on the trailer I found that I left the ignition on last night. The battery was dead. I connected a charger, restored the battery, but when I tried to start it, it seemed to fire briefly but died immediately. Tried multiple times, same result but once there was a backfire.

I changed the coil. No start. I changed the fuel filter to a new one even though the one on it was full of fuel. No start. I figure the fuel pump is OK since the fuel filter was full. The car was running yesterday and the only thing funny was an erratic idle (too low and wanting to stall). I made a slight adjustment to the idle speed screw and re-started it. It idled at ~1500, a little too fast but I let it go and planned to adjust it today after seeing how it idled. I'm working alone so there are some tests I can't make (such as cranking while observing a spark plus for spark).

I need to leave at 6AM to get to Lakeland in time for Ops check, but unless I can figure out what the problem is, I can't even get it on the trailer. Any suggestions?

It is a 64, L84 FI. The FI unit was restored by John De Gregory some 50 miles ago and has run fine until tonight.

Thanks in advance,
Doug Loeffler

[Don H.]

Re: Help!!!

Doug, You need to determine if it is ignition or fuel. Since it is a '64, it probably does not have a cranking signal valve on the FI (early had a 375R units had it, the rest were a 380 without the cranking signal). Check for spark at a plug, disconnect the spider from a nozzle and check for fuel. When you determine which is the problem, go from there. Good luck, Don H.

[Harry S.]

Re: Help!!!

Jump around the ballast resistor. You my have fried it. If it starts, replace it.

[Larry M.]

Re: Help!!!

Doug:

If you left the ignition key in the "RUN" position with the engine off, you may have damaged the points, or TI system (if you have one), or an aftermarket electronic trigger instead of points (such as Petronix). I would start there.

The points (if equipped) could be "arced over" or "glazed" affecting the dwell and hence timing. I would open up the distributor and take a look. They can often be cleaned up with a file. Also check the ballast resistor for resistance or continuity.

If you have an early Petronix, it could be fatally damaged. They stated so in their specifications. Later Petronix (version 3) are said to be more tolerant.

If you have an early TI system, I cannot be of much help to you.

Larry

[Tim T.]

Re: Help!!!

Doug, Leaving the ignition on probably burned the points or ruined the resistor or the coil, but you replaced the coil, so OK
Doubt it is fuel related.
Tim

[Doug L.]

Re: Help!!!

Thanks for your suggestions guys. After reading them I went back to the garage. I checked the points and they didn't look bad. I ran a points file over them but still no start. I will go back in a few minutes and check the gap. I also tried putting a jumper across the 2 ends of the ballast resistor. No luck. I have a call in to Zen Magda the local Corvette guru and will call him first thing in the AM. If I can somehow get it running before 10 I guess I'll make the 3.5 hour drive to Lakeland and throw myself at the mercy of the judges. Ops check that is typically on Friday was moved up to noon Thursday and then moved again to 10 AM Thursday. Thanks for all your suggestions. I'll let you know what happens. It isn't, by the way, a TI distributor and it is a 380 Rochester unit.
Doug

[Larry M.]

Re: Help!!!

If you have a dwell meter, use it to check the dwell versus checking the point gap, as it will tell you if everything is functioning as normal. If you don't have a dwell meter, hookup a 12 volt test light in series with the points. It should flicker on and off as the points and ignition system fire the coil.

A bad (grounded) coil or distributor condenser can prevent the coil from firing. You can disconnect them temporarily for a checkout. It won't hurt a thing for a few seconds or so. However, if the dwell is correct (28-32 degrees) the condensers are okay.

Make sure you have 8-12 volts at the coil + terminal when cranking.

Larry

[Doug L.]

Re: Help!!!

Hi Larry,
No dwell meter but I checked the point gap and set it to what the shop manual says. No start. I also checked the voltage at the resistor and didn't have 12 volts. Nor did I have any voltage at the positive post of the coil. I then ran a jumper from the alternator to the + post of the coil and got it to start and run, but at high idle due to the choke being set. That led me to believe that the resistor was the problem so I got a replacement which when connected had 12 volts on one end and ~6 on the other and 12 v at the coil. That change allowed the car to start but not run for more than 20 seconds before it died. There was no throttle response when it did start.

I have given up making it for judging and will take the car in to a local shop next week.

[Jack H.]

Re: Help!!!

Wow what a shame. Sadly Murphy continues to be alive and well, especially with these old cars. Doug you must be pretty disappointed, and I feel for you.

[Frank D.]

Re: Help!!!

That IS tough. I don't know fuel injection from a hammer but would have tried to lend a hand if I'd been around....just the 'luck of the draw' sometimes with 1/2 century old technology.

[Tim T.]

Re: Help!!!

Man I feel for you.
Please let us know what the resolution is so we can add to our bank of knowledge.
Tim

[John D.]

Re: Help!!!

Hi Doug, Feel bad for you my friend. Leaving the key on should not hurt the FI unit. Your choke is operated by hot air.
Now the starting solenoid under the FI unit known as the Skinner valve should be OK. You must hold the ignition key in the start position to energize the micro switch (actually it's a Cherry Electric switch) So even though you left the key on tno power was going to the FI starting solwnoid. (not to be confused with the engine started solenoid).
You said resistor-I assume you mean ballast resistor reads 12 volts on one side and 6 on the other. I though the reading should be 9 and 12. The guys can jump here to help on this please. Pretty sure it's 9 and 12 though. I do not like the 6 volts. Get another Ballast resistor. Or just jumper it. I mean it would hurt the points if jumped to long but you need new points anyhow. Call Don Baker on this issue. 815-498-9522. He restored your distributor. Oops. Several here told you to jumper the ballast resistor.
Distributor condenser. I can remember in the old days with my 4 cylinder Model A Ford that it didnj't take much messing around to fry the condenser. Get a new one at NAPA. Don't use a NOS Delco Remy please. Hope your didn't hurt the original 091 coil. I assume you have one by now. Leaving the key on could definitely hurt the coil.

[Timothy B.]

Re: Help!!!

Hi Larry,
No dwell meter but I checked the point gap and set it to what the shop manual says. No start. I also checked the voltage at the resistor and didn't have 12 volts. Nor did I have any voltage at the positive post of the coil. I then ran a jumper from the alternator to the + post of the coil and got it to start and run, but at high idle due to the choke being set. That led me to believe that the resistor was the problem so I got a replacement which when connected had 12 volts on one end and ~6 on the other and 12 v at the coil. That change allowed the car to start but not run for more than 20 seconds before it died. There was no throttle response when it did start.

I have given up making it for judging and will take the car in to a local shop next week.

Doug,

Did you happen to check the firewall bulk head connector plug for resistance/corrosion.

[Doug L.]

Re: Help!!!

Hello and an update to all who read my thread.

I obviously missed the judging at Lakeland, FL and after checking everything I could think of I sent the car to Zeon Magda at Gold Coast Corvette. He has 40 years of experience with Corvettes and has worked on the car before. The car has been with him for 2 weeks and the problem has not been located. It starts but immediately stalls. Most everything electrical has been checked. The FI unit is going to come off next for more through testing. I have concluded that the ignition being left on overnight prior to my attempt to take it to be judged is unrelated to the non-starting problem. I did find some burning of the points and those have been replaced with no change. There was an initial problem with the failure of the resistor on the firewall but it was replaced when I was still trying to make it to Lakeland. I will update as this proceeds. If anyone has experienced this problem before I would appreciate hearing about what caused it.
Doug

[John D.]

Re: Help!!!

Doug, How about the purple wiring harness that goes from the burgundy micro switch to the engine starting harness. Connection OK?
One time at a BG meet a customers car wouldn't start on the judging field. The wire was off the micro switch. Fell off.

A 64-65 FI is unique in the fact that it will start and run with a broken drive cable. Typically will run about 10 seconds or so. Won't accelerate as no pump pressure.
Reason it will do this is that it is running on engine fuel pump pressure. John