How many points deducted for.......

[Doug F.]

How many points will I lose at a Regional for not having the correct fuel injectors installed on my 89 when being judged? thanks df

[Edward J.]

Re: How many points deducted for.......

Doug, There is some good posts above on judging processes, I will say that if the judges note the difference in the injectors you will lose 20% on the configuration, and date, So take the total points and subtract 40% off the value. you will need a judging sheet to find the point value, I did down load mine on the NCRS site. Not totally sure if they have all years there, But worth checking.

[Edward J.]

Re: How many points deducted for.......

Doug,
I assume you are replacing the 89 Multecs with a more current Bosch unit. All 89-92 Owners are going thorough this currently. Those that haven't will be, if they drive their cars. The line item is "Fuel Rail and Injectors". 10 originality points for an 89. I use 25% for the rails, and 75% for the injectors. so 8 points for injectors.

The deduction is going to depend on the deviation from the Standard. Ie, appearance. If you use Jon's (Fuel Injector Connection) Bosch III replacement, I will take a 100% deduction on Origionality (and condition as well) becasue they are not even close. Even installation is different.

I recently judged an 89 where the owner had done a very good job of refinishing a set of Bosch I's in the grey/black of the multecs. The config is slightly different, and the date obviously, but this was a very nice presentation, and I thought nicely done way to get around the Multec problem. IIRC, we took a 2 point deduction. Knowing what I know now about 'dates' on replacement components, it would still round down to 2.

There are practical solutions for the Multec issue for NCRS Judging. But they are going to be about 2 points if the Judge knows what he's doing. If you wish to contact the owner of the car I've mentioned as an example, PM me, I'll put you in touch. I don't recall who he sourced the injectors through. But they were nicely done.

Hope this is the input you need.
Dave

Dave with the new CDCIF, If your taking 8 points (bosch III)on injectors and that leaves two points for the rail? Which would get the condition points?

[Peter M.]

Re: How many points deducted for.......

Doug,
I assume you are replacing the 89 Multecs with a more current Bosch unit. All 89-92 Owners are going thorough this currently. Those that haven't will be, if they drive their cars. The line item is "Fuel Rail and Injectors". 10 originality points for an 89. I use 25% for the rails, and 75% for the injectors. so 8 points for injectors.

The deduction is going to depend on the deviation from the Standard. Ie, appearance. If you use Jon's (Fuel Injector Connection) Bosch III replacement, I will take a 100% deduction on Origionality (and condition as well) becasue they are not even close. Even installation is different.

I recently judged an 89 where the owner had done a very good job of refinishing a set of Bosch I's in the grey/black of the multecs. The config is slightly different, and the date obviously, but this was a very nice presentation, and I thought nicely done way to get around the Multec problem. IIRC, we took a 2 point deduction. Knowing what I know now about 'dates' on replacement components, it would still round down to 2.

There are practical solutions for the Multec issue for NCRS Judging. But they are going to be about 2 points if the Judge knows what he's doing. If you wish to contact the owner of the car I've mentioned as an example, PM me, I'll put you in touch. I don't recall who he sourced the injectors through. But they were nicely done.

Hope this is the input you need.
Dave

Doug:

Another solution to the problems that Dave presents here is to remove your oridinal injectors and send them to Jon Banner at FIC. Make sure that you tell Jon that they are for an NCRS car so that he can restore them to their original flow rates and specs. Jon will do a good job for you

[Edward J.]

Re: How many points deducted for.......

OK. The line item "Fuel rails and injectors" is 10 originality, 8 condition. I split it 8/6 for the injectors, leaving 2/2 for the rails. So the Bosch III will receive a 8/6 (100%) deduction. If the rails are OK, there will still be credit for those. Because I define this entry on the sheet as a "full deduction" I bring it to the attention of my Team Leader, and ask him to initial it. Tabulation isn't looking for his initials, as there are still points for the line item, it's a matter of semantics. Plus It's an opportunity to have my decision 'reviewed' by the TL. Which I always welcome.

I understand your thinking, that some points for the rails in originality would save the conditions points for the line item. But I'm fairly sure that my method above is within guidelines, and once again, this is the way I've been taught.

If you segregate a line item into component parts, it is appropriate for a "full deduction" to be equally divided, as a percentage of 'content that component represents', between both originality and condition. I know Terry and Roy read these "judging" discussions. If I'm wrong, please enlighten me.

Dave

Dave, My understanding is if you have at least 10% of the originality points you recieve the condition points?

[Terry M.]

Re: How many points deducted for.......

Dave, My understanding is if you have at least 10% of the originality points you recieve the condition points?

But if one is making an originality deduction (6 of 8 in this case) for "totally unlike or missing" for the major component

[Edward J.]

Re: How many points deducted for.......

But if one is making an originality deduction (6 of 8 in this case) for "totally unlike or missing" for the major component on the line, as we are in this case, it is appropriate to deduct 2/3 of the condition points. I agree with Dave's assessment.

I know this point of view is easier to understand if the major part is missing -- after all if the part isn't there one can't assess condition, but if the major part is totally unlike the original it is incorrect to award complete condition points. And it is the major item on the line that is in question in this hypothetical. In my opinion, if it was the minor item on the line I would award condition points based on the major item and ignore the condition of the minor item. That is what I have been taught – probably at the same school in Fort Worth as Dave.

I also would welcome direction from on high – if he can take a breather from the delivery information requests. But I hasten to add I am comfortable with this hypothetical decision.

Terry, I believe that you and Dave are correct If one receives a deduct on the originality side then there should be a deduct on the condition side. I went a CDCIF coarse here in the north east over the summer and remember that if there was at least 10% originality that you could get some condition points. I guess when it comes to laying out the differences there may be some of us that may find a way to get the 10% so you'll get the condition points.

Since you judge each area -configuration, - 20%, date -20%, , completeness, 0% installation- 0% ,finish -20%, This was my hypothetical score. This is why I am still in progress with judging.

[Edward J.]

Re: How many points deducted for.......

Absolutely. This is within the Judges responsibility to be fair to the Judging Standard, and to the owner, and our system. Judges are allowed to use descretion, and their experience to come up with a decision. If it's a significant point deduction, I will be sure I'm "OK" with how I arrived there, and that my partner agrees with me. We have to explain it to the owner during our review, and possibly to the TL or higher, if the owner appeals our decision. Leaving 10% originality, and hence condition, is one of the methodologies allowed for use by Judges to mitigate the impact of a fairly substantial deviation in appearance. But see below, for clarification in my thinking regarding this Bosch III discussion.



I don't get to this calculation, unless it passes what I use as my first step: The Judging Standard. "Does it appear to be.....". Boy, Bosch III's fail this assessment miserably. So I go right to Section 4, Paragraph 10, in the JRM. Incorrect Replacement Parts. "Non-GM replacement parts which are incorrect are subject ta a 100% deduction on both originality and condition".

When you begin a line-item, begin with The Judging Standard. Then the calculations follow.....

Dave, this accessment I did is what I thought, not necc. correct, Bosch did make injectors for corvettes, cannot say I ever noted the bosch III's, I do remember my days as Chevrolet line mech in the 70and 80s cars the multi tech injectors being a problem. If and only If these bosch III's injectors are GM replacements does iT not qualifiy for some sort of credit?

BTW, Thanks for your input. Ed

[Edward J.]

Re: How many points deducted for.......

Dave , one word- YUCK. After seing that I totaly agree.