One persons opinion:

[Norris W.]

Re: One persons opinion:

This is only my opinion, I think the Corvette reproduction industory is destroying the way we as judges, judge cars. The NCRS standard of judging a car is as it left the factory, St. Louis or Bowling Green. What good is it when a person restoring a car purchases a reproduction part to install on there car for judging, because they are to lazy or just don't want to spend the time and money to try to locate the original piece. The words have been said many times, well it's ONLY one point deduction, so why should I spend hundreds of dollars on a original. Yes there are people like myself who will spend the time and money to put a original part on there car. Let's stop taking the lazy way out!!!!! NCRS judging chairman, team leaders,should take a long look at these short cuts. What will happen, we will be judging cars with all reproduction parts in years to come. Again this is only one persons opinion.

I don't think the reproduction industry is destroying anything and has been directly responsible for the growth and health of the hobby. How many cars would have not been made nice or preserved if there were no repro parts available. Rubber front and rear bumpers already mentioned for '73 and up Corvettes are prime examples. It's important to consider that the NCRS judging standards are only one aspect of the Corvette hobby and there are other lifeforms. When owners become so focused on their own preferences and prejudices as to how a car SHOULD BE done, a certain snobbery develops that is limiting. There is a finite supply of NOS and used original parts available. Should we then leave a car in poorer condition if a part is not findable for the sake of NOT using anything repro? Like it or not, I think our passion for the absolute sometimes exagerated originality has in many cases outlived it's practicality. I don't forsee the young guys that are entering the hobby wanting to dirty up a fresh high quality resto with flaws that they have to explain to the non expert as being intentional mistakes to replicate factory production. Digging up blatantly inferior, currently available lead free laquer paint in place of far superior current materials is a prime example of impractical conformity. It's always seemed silly to me to replicate factory sloppyness in the form of drips and runs that may or may not even be present on a many cars and are inconsistent at best. The utter foolishness of the growing overspray fungus all over everything has long ago evaporated from my cars. I've seen '67 big blocks with orange paint all the way to the carb bases on the intake and fully expect to see it sooner or later on the wiper blades, over the top of the windshield and on the dash pad with some guy's proud declaration that it came that way. For some unknown reason it seems we've gotten to the point that exagerated factory sloppyness is prefered over abbreviated. The same can be said for preference of an original part that is inferior to a currently available repro. I've come to the conclusion that all of my Corvettes were specially prepared by GM for the ultimate owner who they considered very important (ME) and were therefore factory detailed as they would have been for a corporate executive or annual factory auto show, being completely void of overspray, drips, runs and orange peel in the paint. I guess I'm just not a purist.

[Joe R.]

Re: One persons opinion:

Ok, I just cannot wait any longer to pitch in my stupidity!

1. Without the reproduction market our Corvette's would never be restored and my hats off to those people who have invested in that market.

2. Replacement parts from GM are not rejects. They are made from dies that were worn out in the 60's and used in the 70's so Corvette owners would have replacements. My hats off to GM!

3. Junkers that we can afford come out of old junkyards and bodyshops at less than $2000.00 each. Matter of fact I sold three 64,66,67 for less than that this year. All restorable with titles and trimtags. I kept a 63 roadster for myself.

4. The sky is not falling in on this market. Us poor folks can still afford this hobby. If we remove the burden of money from a rich boy from time to time that's our business.

IF you don't like the reproduction Corvette market please feel free to join the Volkswagon Club of America. Or better yet, Ford Mustang Club!

JR

[Mike M.]

Re: One persons opinion:

Vinnie;i noticed you didn't identify the author of this future Restorer article but let me guess---it had to originate from a homesite overlooking the Columbia river.mike

[Jeffrey B.]

Re: One persons opinion:

Life is to short. After reading all of this I am more convinced than ever that us guys with driver quality cars maybe avoiding a lot of frustration and anger. I think I'll go hug my non origional corvette.
Jeff

[Vinnie P.]

Re: One persons opinion:

Vinnie;i noticed you didn't identify the author of this future Restorer article but let me guess---it had to originate from a homesite overlooking the Columbia river.mike

Mike...actually one would think that it came from overlooking the Columbia River...with the dry humor, sarcasm and wit...especially after a few libations...or after sucking in some of that rareified Mt. Hood air...but no...not this time...the author (whose name escapes me now) was not an NCRS member...I can't remember how this came to me...but it was over 15 yrs ago when I was doing our chapter newsletter...I did exchange emails with the author and got his permission to print it in our newsletter way back when...I think he was from the Minnesota/Wisconsin/Michigan area...I have all the info on another hard drive and would have to really dig to find it...

[Dennis B.]

Re: One persons opinion:

Dennis, you're missing the reason for deficiencies in reproduction parts. It is simply too expensive to reproduce the tooling that was used on the originals. Reproducing some of the more expensive tooling would make reproduction parts that are far more expensive then the originals on the market today. I also wonder just many people care that much.

Paul

I agree Paul I was just pointing out that if "the best of the best" needs to be quantified in the future, perhaps the best parts should be part of the measure? So if you have a choice of a $150 valve cover or a $400 that is "exactly correct". Let people that want the fading supply of NOS parts now have a replacement.
It all boils down to money. Old school says the 63 Original GM Power Boost for brakes is worth Mega bucks. The Clone is not. So the person that spent megabucks wants more points because its original, even though possibly not original to his car. So as NOS runs out, if they want an expensive non-NOS alternative, this would be it.
This does not mean I agree with it. But it appears there is a need to believe NOS is either better or "more appropriate" even though repro's have silently taken over.
Personally I don't see the point. Once you open the gate to repro's, then the NOS parts will eventually no longer hold their value. Much like the stock market NOS works on the greater fool theory.
What makes real Knock offs worth $10,000....... only one thing

[Phil D.]

Re: One persons opinion:

Since I'm recovering from surgery, I seem to have time to read and type. I guess I'm one of those younger members Jim W talked about. Without the Taiwanese repro industry, I'm certain I could not participate in this hobby at least not at this stage in life. Money aside, I still have to work for a living, maintain a house and a yard on the weekends, spend time with family etc. I appreciate being able to click a few buttons and have a suitable albeit incorrect repop or replacement part arrive on my front porch in time for the next weekends car show. I still want to keep my 69 as stock appearing as possible, but much more, I prefer to actually drive it.

I will likely never have my 69 judged as its already got too many catalog parts, but I am here on the NCRS because I want to be educated enough to know what is and isn't original about it, why some things are the way they are, etc. While I may throw on an incorrect part here or there, I have learned through NCRS that there's a bunch of very simple things I can do to keep things original without spending a fortune, as simple as just picking the right color of paint for a part or routing wires or hoses a certain way. I also might be able to avoid inadvertently screwing something up irreversibly like decking the block and grinding off the engine #s. At least I won't have made it any harder for the next owner who may want to take it to the next level and have it judged.

To get us younger folks involved, I suggest rather than "relax" any of the flight judging standards (considering repop or otherwise), put greater emphasis on the "sportsman" class and expanded awards. Most of my generation gravitate toward those "other" Corvette clubs that emphasize how pretty or how fast. History and nostalgia will catch up with my generation eventually and they'll want original unmodified Corvettes again, but by then will be too late for the ones they've already messed up. I'll admit to having been involved in MCA too and its a far, far, far younger group than NCRS, but they include awards for all conceivable varieties of Mustang enthusiast, not just judging standards. Thing is, while a young man is showing off his modified stang, at the same show, there's a group of old geezers pouring over every inch of a stock one right next to his and the youngster can't help but be educated.

[Patrick H.]

Re: One persons opinion:

I will likely never have my 69 judged as its already got too many catalog parts..

Might I suggest that it's probably better than you think. The common misconception is that Top Flight cars are perfect. Not true; they're just within 6% of being perfect, and how that 6% is calculated makes all the difference. In addition, most "catalog parts" might render a few points off per item. It's 25 points off if a light bulb doesn't work under Operations, and that's the section where you can make sure your car scores 100%. Most people forget this and lose more points in Ops than anywhere else the first time out.

Patrick

[Dick W.]

Re: One persons opinion:

Without repro parts, a lot of Corvettes would be junked. The General long ago discontinued parts for the C-1, C-2, C-3, and C-4 cars. Anything available from them is coincidental in that it fits another carline.

There would be few restored Vettes, Model A Fords, Mopars, MG's. The price of NOS (which in a lot of cases are not correct) is high enough now, let alone if the repro market were to be done away with. Where would you buy weatherstriping, fiberglass, bumpers, interior parts? Agreed the authenticity varies from item to item.

It is the judges responsibility to recognize the difference (if there is any) and take appropiate deductions. It is not their responsibility to deduct just because the item was not made for GM in the appropriate era.

Not to be condescending, but I have judged longer that most of the posters in this thread have been members. I have taken the time to learn the differences, if there is a difference, between original and reproduction parts. I think that if you judge, you should take the time to do that also.

[Mike M.]

Re: One persons opinion:

well put pappa smurf.mike

[Vinnie P.]

Re: One persons opinion:



You Did Good!!!

[Dennis B.]

Re: One persons opinion:

Without repro parts, a lot of Corvettes would be junked. The General long ago discontinued parts for the C-1, C-2, C-3, and C-4 cars. Anything available from them is coincidental in that it fits another carline.

There would be few restored Vettes, Model A Fords, Mopars, MG's. The price of NOS (which in a lot of cases are not correct) is high enough now, let alone if the repro market were to be done away with. Where would you buy weatherstriping, fiberglass, bumpers, interior parts? Agreed the authenticity varies from item to item.

It is the judges responsibility to recognize the difference (if there is any) and take appropiate deductions. It is not their responsibility to deduct just because the item was not made for GM in the appropriate era.

Not to be condescending, but I have judged longer that most of the posters in this thread have been members. I have taken the time to learn the differences, if there is a difference, between original and reproduction parts. I think that if you judge, you should take the time to do that also.

So if you go back to the original post on this thread. The author wanted higher points awarded to NOS. Which obviously favors those that got here first. If something authentic comes up for sale for a 63 there is a mad rush of PMs saying they want it. There is just not enough NOS parts to go around, that is not disputable.

So lets do a quick comparison, of how you would judge to see if this answers the question or just starts another series of what I see as valuable debate.

Person A shows up for judging with a 1964Vette that is 100% NOS correct for that year.
Person B shows up for judging with a 1964 Vette that is 100% repro correct for that year.

That means he has done the correct "oversprays" with the repro paint, the correct clips, screws, ties, etc. Lets also assume the Repro car, was done with the "best of repros" that emulated the NOS as good as it gets.

Lets also assume both started with a birdcage and driveline only. Only Person A started to rebuild in 1965 and Person B started to do his rebuild in 2005

How would you differentiate between the two, or must you? Would there be significiant points award differences if it was judged by other judges?
PS you have been judging longer then I have been a member

[Dick W.]

Re: One persons opinion:

So if you go back to the original post on this thread. The author wanted higher points awarded to NOS. Which obviously favors those that got here first. If something authentic comes up for sale for a 63 there is a mad rush of PMs saying they want it. There is just not enough NOS parts to go around, that is not disputable.

So lets do a quick comparison, of how you would judge to see if this answers the question or just starts another series of what I see as valuable debate.

Person A shows up for judging with a 1964Vette that is 100% NOS correct for that year.
Person B shows up for judging with a 1964 Vette that is 100% repro correct for that year.

That means he has done the correct "oversprays" with the repro paint, the correct clips, screws, ties, etc. Lets also assume the Repro car, was done with the "best of repros" that emulated the NOS as good as it gets.

Lets also assume both started with a birdcage and driveline only. Only Person A started to rebuild in 1965 and Person B started to do his rebuild in 2005

How would you differentiate between the two, or must you? Would there be significiant points award differences if it was judged by other judges?
PS you have been judging longer then I have been a member

That is a question that cannot be answered! A lot depends on the skill of the restorer and his knowledge of parts. A lot of repro parts are very close, and a skillful restorer can make the necessary modifications to make them undetectable. And remember UNDETECTABLE is the key word. It does not make a fiddlers d**n who made the part, just that they appear as original.

[Dennis B.]

Re: One persons opinion:

That is a question that cannot be answered! A lot depends on the skill of the restorer and his knowledge of parts. A lot of repro parts are very close, and a skillful restorer can make the necessary modifications to make them undetectable. And remember UNDETECTABLE is the key word. It does not make a fiddlers d**n who made the part, just that they appear as original.

Thanks for the answer. That's what I was hoping for, as the answer. This gives everyone equal opportunity to participate in "the gold ring" no matter who got here first or not.
So assuming equal skill and dedication to the preservation process, everyone is equal. That works for me and I am sure many others here.

Now to put that continental kit on the 63 I always wanted

[Michael W.]

Re: One persons opinion:

There's an effort within the NCRS for judges to have their own cars go through the judging system- 'put yourself in the owner's shoes' so to speak. This is recognized in part with an MJ's hat different in colour from the standard black. Excellent idea IMHO.

I've long maintained that owners should also be heavily encouraged or even mandated to 'put themselves in the judge's shoes', perhaps even before being allowed to have their own cars presented.

A large number of complaints about judging results or standards comes from those that have no experience or knowledge of how the system actually works. A casual glance over on that other weebsite will see a repeating theme. Many experienced Corvette guys can pick out a repro piece simply from being in the hobby for decades- but have no clue what sort of deduction to apply.