lesson or originality points vs. condition points

[Don S.]

How does one determine judging points(originality and condition)on items such as air cleaners, engine paint, engine colour, paint jobs , generators, generator and distrubutor numerical tags.Does one have to choose between original and lousy looking paint, convertable tops, parts, etc. vs. a new reproduction part or new paint job that looks good but would sacrifice originality points. can some one straighten out my confusion??

[Robert C.]

Re: lesson or originality points vs. condition poi

Yes, the original parts in less than perfect condition generally score higher than repro parts in good condition. There's always a built-in bonus for originality. This mainly occurs because the repro parts are different in some way, than the original ones. You can get judging score sheets from the National Judging Chairman, Roy Sinor. These have all the points for each item.

[Don S.]

Re: lesson or originality points vs. condition poi

bob:-- I understand about points for originality. My judging juide has the points for each item. The blue ribbon cars I have seen at the ncrs show have new paint, new air cleaners, new rad hoses, new convertable tops, new generator tags, new distribor tags, new replated chrome. If there is a deduction for all of this , how do they get top flight status? I am missing something here.

[Dave S.]

Re: lesson or originality points vs. condition poi

Don,

There is no real black and white answer to your question, but there are definately specific guidelines given to judges to keep scoring as consistent as humanally possible. Study the JG carefully. Standard reproduction deductions are given in the NCRS judging materials for some items like tires, batteries, exhaust, glass etc. Judging by nature has some subjectivity. Others can guide you but you need to learn by going through the judging process yourself. I agree with Bob that original parts will generally score better than most reproduction parts. Preparing a Corvette for maximum judging points is a real challenge and an ongoing learning experience. Enjoy the challenge.

[Harmon C.]

Re: lesson or originality points vs. condition poi

Don Any part needs to appear as original( as delivered to the orginal owner) no better no worse no different and if the judge feels it does appear as original their is no originaly deduction no matter how old or new the part may be.

Condition is how much it is damaged or deteriorated.

[Jack H.]

Excellent Advice!

Nicely worded reply here...go through the judging experience either as an owner or as an observer judge to understand. The process of when to use reproduction parts vs. used original, restored original, or that hard to find NOS original is truly an artform as stated. There is no black & white 'catch-all' answer and individual restorers take it part by part on a case by case basis to achieve their scores/awards.

And, YES, there are times when you're on the horns of a dilema trying to figure out if the originality point loss from a fresh reproduction part with known differences outweighs the condition point loss from a used/deteriorated original piece....

[Patrick H.]

Re: lesson or originality points vs. condition poi

I'd agree with Dave and Bob. Dave and I have been discussing a little bit about this off-line as well.

Part of the reason that REAL NOS parts (not the NORS ones we all see on eBay) sell for big dollars is that they are new versions of the exact parts used on your Corvette. It's like installing a part on a new Corvette in 196X (or 197X for Dave and I).

Now, SOME of the reproduction parts out there are nearly identical to the originals. As a result, if a part cannot be distinguished from one that might have been orignally installed, it gets full points for originality.

On the flip side, SOME (too many?) reproduction parts are "close but no cigar" when it comes to accuracy of appearance. It is then left to the judge as to how many points are deducted for the deviation in appearance from originality.

I hope that helps a little. One thought is to spend time at an event as an OJ. I think you'll get a clearer picture of the system.

Patrick

[Don S.]

Re: lesson or originality points vs. condition poi

Thanks guys: I understand a little better. I have a 1955 and NOS parts are pretty near non-existant. In some cases there was only 100-200 original parts due to running changes.I saw an original 55 vette at an ncrs meet in florida (Orlando)and it was a mess. the top was filthy and torn and the paint was ugly. I would not own that car in that condition if they gave it to me.Judging by all the nice shiny vettes being judged ( 100 or so) vs. the one or two original ones I assume that most people in the ncrs feel the same.. Is it only vettes that have this "as it came out of the factory rule" Will this rule eventually doom the NCRS club as original parts dry up or will the NCRS have to change the rules to survive (ie: restamped motors)

[Patrick H.]

Re: lesson or originality points vs. condition poi

Don,

Dave and I, for example, each own very original cars in very good condition. Each are bright and shiny (although his brighter than mine with much less mileage). If you compare them though, to a fully restored car there is quite a difference. I know that there are 53/54/55 cars also that are also in very good condition; I saw pictures of one on another board this week.

Anyone can "restore" a car, or make it bright and shiny when you start with a worn out one (given enough cash). Often the trick is keeping an older one bright and shiny when you find it that way. Dave and I have even been debating "restoring" about 1 1/2 square inches on my 72. Yes, that's right, a piece that small. I've decided not to.

Now, some of the cars are too far gone to be kept in good original condition. Those cars are great restoration candidates. The trick is knowing the difference...and being patient enough not to improve the original ones "just a little bit."

Patrick

[Roy Braatz]

Re: lesson or originality points vs. condition poi

I feel that the original column should be what it says. If a part is original 100 points, if not O. Condition column is for condition for that part. I also realize I live in the real world and that is why things are as it is. We are amazed when we see a unrestored Corvette having all the original parts. Why not a restored Corvette useing all original parts?Those owners that recondition original parts,and go the extra mile to find or buy NOS parts are rarely given recognition for thier effort in restoring a REAL Corvette, by not useing any repro parts. It's not easy or cheap to do , were soft parts like weatherstriping, rugs,tires, seat covers, etc. are harder to come by and in many cases have to use repro.
Many Corvettes have repro parts because they are cheaper and easy to get,I see many judges thinking that a repro part is an original part because of more and more Corvette becoming generic toward the repro parts every year and point loss is little..This subject easly brings on arguments so go for it.

[Dennis C.]

Re: lesson or originality points vs. condition poi

I feel all posted by noon on Saturday was really well thought out good advice.

[Tom R.]

Re: lesson or originality points vs. condition poi

Don:

We hope you've concluded it's a study process along with one of familiarity. Overtime and by looking at many like vehicles, one gets familiar with originality versus restored. They almost jump out at you! I had a chance to look at Dave's 71 car this past January...and it reeks of originality. Likewise, in our 78 judging class we had obviously restored cars whose restoration departed from the technical guidelines. They jump out at you due to the familiarity issue.

The suggestions here to involve yourself in the OJ process would help your understanding of the judging process and how experienced judges assess originality and condition points.