birdcage problem

[Robert Smith 35032]

[Mike M.]

Re: birdcage problem

I don't know of anyone repoing the windshield farme pieces you need. Last time i dealt with a rusty birdcage, got pieces off a donor and fabricated what i could harvest off the donor.A good metal fabrication shop should be able to make and replace the deteriorated pieces if you aren't up to doing it yourself. good luck, mike

[G B.]

Re: birdcage problem

I hope this doesn't ruin your Easter Day, but I will tell you what I've learned from similar encounters of the birdcage kind.

Small rust holes in the bottom of the windshield frame can be caused by rain water leaks around the windshield. Entire rusted birdcage members, especially above the windshield, are usually a sign of condensation damage from sitting in a very humid environment for years. Such serious damage is an indication that much more rust is in the hidden areas. Often the only full repair (that is realistic) is replacement of the birdcage with a used assembly. As you can imagine, this is a ton of work.

I don't recommend individual replacement of multiple birdcage members. It can seldom be done to factory tolerances, especially by a first-timer. Yes, I know there are many NCRS members who pride themselves on being able to forge their own crankshafts. Perhaps you are one of those, so I'm going to just wish you luck with this repair if you choose to have custom pieces made and weld them in place yourself.

Me? I'd step up to paying $1,500 for a good used coupe birdcage from the desert west or find another whole car to restore. Ouch! That even hurt me to say it.

[Robert Smith 35032]

Re: birdcage problem

No, you didn't ruin my day - taking the windshield and dashboard off and seeing the rust across the lower windshield birdcage piece and in the lower corners handled that all on their own. I can do the welding of the three birdcage pieces that I need - but I'm wondering if I can successfully do this without taking any of the body panels off. I was in archives and back in 2000, there were many postings of a company called CSC Reproductions of Ohio - back then they were making birdcage parts for the 68-82's and the members noted they might be making parts for 63-67's in future. I will be contacting them post haste. I still wonder if I can do this without removing the entire front portion of car and cowl. Any other final comments from you or any other takers?

[Jack H.]

Re: birdcage problem

Paragon lists individual windshield frame components for Shark cars ('68-82) because this model is much more prone to birdcage rot than early Corvettes with the glass enclosed in a rubber gasket that's interference-fit mounted. However, two drawbacks:

First the individual pieces are VERY expensive and, second, you don't get a 'template' as to how to cut out the defective old pieces and how/where to mount the fresh new pieces.

So, what's done for those cars is to buy a complete used windshield frame from a similar scrap yard Corvette (figure $150 to $350 depending on source), determine where bad steel stop and reasonably good steel begins, MEASURE, MEASURE and REMEASURE, then cut the old frame and graft the donor frame in place. Yep, it's tricky, but pro Corvette restoration shops do the job with reasonable frequency and typically EXCELLENT results. Go figure the task is 2-3 days of shop labor.

There's absolutely no reason why the same proceedure can't be done for mid-year cars. They too are subject to wreck/roll damage as well as mainenance neglect & frame rot. BUT, as Jerry suggested, it's important to make SURE you know where the rust damage ends on your car before tackling the task of locating/buying and grafting on rust free parts from a donor car....

If you're squeamish about tackling such a major job yourself, I suggest you ask for advice/help from fellow members of your local NCRS chapter. They know who does what/who has what in your neck of the woods! This sort of handholding and consulting is a great benefit of joining and getting active in your local NCRS chapter!

[Joe L.]

Re: birdcage problem

Robert-----

The last time I had a conversation with the folks from CSC Reproductions, and it's been awhile, they told me that they were in the process of reproducing all of the windshield frame pieces for 68-82 Corvettes. He said that it was going to be a long process since the cost for building the tooling is substantial. Subsequently, they did come out with the 68-82 side windshield frame sections, but not the entire pillar posts, which he said was their ultimate intention. I asked about 63-67 and he said that they intended to get to them "sometime in the future". He explained that the market for the 68-82 cars was so much greater due to the fact that so many cars were produced over the period and that the 63-67 market was very limited due to the smaller number of cars produced over this period. You should definitely contact them to see where they're at, though.

As others have said, you should do your best to further evaluate the overall corrosion problems which this car suffers from. Often, serious birdcage corrosion will be accompanied by frame corrosion and corrosion of the inner steel structure of the doors. NOT necessarily, but often.

I'll repeat a story that I've mentioned previously: several years ago I was looking at a 1965 coupe which the owner was asking $16,000 for. It was in only fair condition, but I quickly determined that it was suffering from extensive birdcage and frame rust. When the owner observed my interest in these areas, he immediately dropped his price to $13,000. While assuring him that it was not a negotiating ploy, I went on to tell him that if he offered to GIVE me the car, I'd have to think about it. I was DEAD SERIOUS.

The sad fact of the matter is that the cost of fully repairing and restoring a car which suffers from extensive corrosion damage can exceed the cost of just purchasing a sound car. So, that renders the value of the car requiring such repairs about "0" from a restoration standpoint. That car's value might really only be the sum of its salable parts ("some must die so that others may live"). But, as some folks know, I have no interest in parting out cars or, perish the thought, selling parts thereof.

[Robert Smith 35032]

Re: birdcage problem

Thanks Joe, for your comments about my birdcage problem. The frame is at the shop right now getting some minor rust repairs done at one of the kickups in the back and being measured on a frame jig to ensure straightness, sand blasting and paint.

The corrosion on my bird cage seems to have stopped at the A pillar caps. I can't see any other corrosion from the A pillar cap on down. From underneath, the bottom of the birdcage seems sound as well. Granted, I can't see every square inch of the A pillar, but shining a light into the holes, etc, as well as I can, it appears the cancer stopped at the A pillar caps.

My main question right now is that even if I can get the parts - either from a parted out donor or from a place like CSC, is it feasible to think that the (1) replacement of the two corner pieces, (2) the A pillar caps themselves, and (3) the long piece across the lower windshield could be accomplished without taking any of the fiberglass body parts off of the car.

An answer to that question would go a long way in determining if I could take this restoration to the next step. As far as I can tell, the replacement of those parts (and the very minor frame repair that is currently being done) would basically eliminate all of my rust problems with this car.

Thanks again for your response.

[Kris Schmalenberg]

Re: birdcage problem

I also have some rust damage on a 65 coupe that I am working on. So I am following this thread closely. My damage is only on the passenger side and is limited to the windsheild channel and the bottom of the side window where it meets the fender. Is this where yours is? What is the A-pillar cap? Thanks.

[Dan Tewell]

Re: birdcage problem

Robert, I hate to be the one to tell you, but the cowl panel and the tops of the fenders have to be removed to complete this repair. The lower windsheild frame has a bonding strip rivited to it. The outer (cowl) panel is then bonded to that strip. To get to the caps that I think you're talking about, you have to remove the tops of the fenders to get acess.

[Robert Smith 35032]

Re: birdcage problem

My rust problem is mostly along the metal piece that spans the lower windshield. If you look in the AIM, (around pages G35- 40 I think) you'll see the pieces and how they are constructed. Also as the windshield lip moves around the corner of the window and up about 2 or 3 inches - I have issues there also - on both sides. If your vette is basically gutted, you can see the corner part that is kind of like a Y. Where it attaches to the A pillar there is a cap for that.
All this talk is okay - but I know you still would probably like to see what the parts look like. Have I got a web site for you! Go to grandsportcorvette.com There are about 7 or 8 links - go to the one that talks about building up a birdcage. You'll love it. There are detailed pictures (that I printed out in color - about 10 pages) of the buildup of a birdcage for the #002 Grand Sport. Whoever did this used aluminum and built molds, etc. In the pictures you'll see the A pillars, the A pillar caps, the lower corner pieces, the span across the lower windshield, even the B pillars-the pillar behind the doors, etc. It won't show you any of the pieces of the birdcage frame across the top of windshield because grand sport #002 was a convertible. But it clearly shows the lower pieces and how they fit them all together, etc. I've got an email into them asking if they sell those parts (obviously I'd like them in the steel). No answer yet - but I sent email just today so I'm hoping for a response soon.
Check the sight out - you'll get a much better understanding of the parts they built and how they all go together.
Our problem now.... finding the parts and doing the replacement work! I'm looking for either finding new parts or getting a donor cowl that has the front section - some of the pieces I need. Then I have to determine if I can do the repair without removing the entire front end/cowl area - which I definitely do not want to do. Keep in touch and good luck!

[Edward M.]

Re: birdcage problem

I've done this on a 64 roadster and had the parts from a helpful chap at Pyramid Restoration in Michigan. I was able to get the base of the windshield frame and the caps at the top of the A pillars. If you cut along the tips of the fenders you will have a good repair but you must cut across the fenders. I did this on a BLACK car. You must do a competent fiberglass repair as this was my greatest difficulty in the whole process- everything else about the frame repair ,riveting and bonding is strait forward. Use Assembly guide for specs and measure, measure and measure for fit. When you do the fiberglass repair at the top of the fenders taper them 2 inches from each side and don't use bad gelcoat as someone sent me from Folida-use only the best. If you're like me you will see this as an exercise of challenge and the restoration of a worthy recipient. When mine was complete the top and all components fit properly and were solid, so a coupe shouldn't be a problem and don't get put off by whimpy repair shops who want to charge a bundle for a relatively strait forward, step by step repair.