engine block for 63

[Rainer S.]

I am buying a 870 engine block for an early 63 SWC fuelie,in the Phoenix, AZ area (Mesa, AZ). The bores are .060 over already, but seller says, that the bores look good. I asked for actual dimension checks top and bottom, but have not received them. Is there anybody in the Phoenix area, who is qualified and willing to inspect the block for me ?(for a fee, of course). I want to be sure the block is rebuildable, before I finalize the purchase. You can Email me at: rschwager@peoplepc.com or call me at (248) 474-0016.

[Joe L.]

Re: engine block for 63

Rainer-----

I can't help with the inspection. However, I'll offer this:

.060" over is a "healthy" over-bore for a 327 block. You wouldn't want to go any further without sonic-testing of the cylinder walls. So, you're buying a block that's marginal, at best. I would let that be a guide in the price you pay if you decide to purchase it.

On the other side of the coin, if you can buy it right, you can always have it sleeved back to standard bore size. This is expensive and usually isn't something that's worth it in most cases. But, for a "correct" block, PURCHASED RIGHT, it can be worth it. Cylinder sleeves are far better material than the native gray iron used for engine blocks, so there's an advantage there, too. Properly installed, there is really no functional disadvantage to sleeved blocks, either. I think that's mostly a myth. The fact that it's expensive, though, that's NOT a myth.

[Loren L.]

Call Cary Faber at 602-252-7436

He can either check it out or perhaps has a block. If the guy won't respond
I think you already know the answer to your question.

[Craig S.]

Re: engine block for 63

You may also want to try Randy at Engines Limited in Wisconsin....Craig




Engines Limited

[Jack H.]

Re: engine block for 63

You may be asking an unreasonable task of the seller... To really tell you what you want/need to know (will this engine 'make' as is), the block needs to go to a machinest who can run a bore scope down each hole, visually assess any rust/pit and make a 'judgement' call.

What Joe Lucia told you about sleeving is perfectly correct! A savvy machinest, who knows his way around vintage parts (some vintage race organizations require factory original castings and Ford's thin-wall block technology is notorious for needing/wanting a full compliment of sleeves) can lay in eight sleeves to restore the block to factory nominal BETTER than its original build....

But, at $85-125/hole, that IS a cost consideration in the equation.

Next, if the block won't 'make' at 60-over and you don't want to blow the dough to re-sleeve all the bores, there IS the alternative of hand selected pistons. The 30-over, 60-over... fixed size increment is somewhat of a myth. It's a convenience factor for warehouse distributors and other parts stocking agencies. Most piston mfgrs (if your machinest contacts them directly) will be pleased to hand select pistons from a run to match a need. My 350 was at 40-over on its last build and is perfectly happy now at 42.5-over with this method and that saved the major step up to 60-over....

Last, I hope you've verified the '870 block came from the Saginaw/Flint foundry complex (vs. Tonawanda). It'd be a pity to get a right cast number cylinder case only to find out it's factory concours incorrect for Corvette application AFTER you spend the time/$$$$.

[Rainer S.]

Re: engine block for 63

Thanks everyone for the good advise. I was not aware, that re-sleeving (8) bores actually improoves the overall performance of a block, I thought it was detrimental.How much of the old sleeve's wall is left after boring-out to accept the sleeve ? Or is the sleeve replaced completely ? Joe, I will get back to you, if I want you to look at the block. Will see, I have another option.

[Joe L.]

Re: engine block for 63

Rainer-----

Original cast iron blocks are not sleeved. The cylinders are bored directly in the block substrate cast iron material. For sleeving, the cylinders are over-bored by approximately the OD of the cylinder sleeves to be used (actually, slightly less since the sleeves are a "tight" interference fit). Generally speaking, the sleeves are about 1/8" wall, so this means an overbore of about 0.250". The sleeves are then pressed into the over-bored cylinders. Proper sleeve installation calls for the over-bore to stop short of the bottom of the exisiting cylinders as the only part of the bore that needs to be replaced is that which the cylinder actually rides on. The short length of the original cylinder bore serves as a "stop" for the lower end of the sleeve. The upper portion of the sleeve is provided with a positive "stop" by the cylinder head. The "stops" are there for "insurance purposes". For the most part, the interference fit of the sleeves keeps them where they were put.

Most of the better sleeves on the market (Darton, etc) are made of a high grade of nodular or ductile iron. Original cylinder bores are just the native gray cast iron material. Nodular or ductile iron is much stronger and provides a much better surface for the pistons and rings.

Virtually all PRODUCTION aluminum block engines use dry iron sleeves. So, the notion that sleeves are bad, if true, means that a lot of folks out there have "bad" engines, including all C5 owners, all Cadillac Northstar owners, and most modern foreign cars. PRODUCTION cast iron blocks don't use sleeves since it's much cheaper to just bore the cylinders directly into the native cast iron material.

Also, just so there's no confusion, I didn't offer to inspect the block; I don't live in AZ.

[Tracy C.]

Ok Jack....I'll bite

How duya know if your '870 block came from the Saginaw/Flint foundry complex or Tonawanda?

[Joe L.]

Re: Ok Jack....I'll bite

Tracy----

Usually, a Saginaw (Flint) block will have a casting date year of only 1 digit. In other words, for 1963 the date would be represented by just a "3" after the day designation. For most, BUT NOT ALL, Tonawanda castings the year will be represented by 2 digits. In other words, for 1963, the year would be represented by a "63".

Another feature of Tonawanda cast blocks is that there is usually a large "T" present somwhere on the casting. Often it is seen as GMT preceding the casting number. Sometimes, the "T" is all by itself somewhere on the casting. Saginaw cast blocks have no corrollary marking that I am aware of.

[Tracy C.]

Thanks Joe...the knots in my gut have now departed *NM*

[John H.]

Re: Ok Jack....I'll bite

Flint (Saginaw-cast) blocks also have a 1/8" NPT square-head pipe plug adjacent to the edge of the timing cover at about 11 o'clock that plugs a hole Flint drilled to connect two oil passages; Tonawanda used a different process for connecting the oil galleries, and didn't require the additional drilling operation (or the plug). If there's no plug, it's a Tonawanda block (not used in Corvettes).

[Mike M.]

Re: Ok Jack....I'll bite

John. I have seen (and possess) a tonowanda 870 block that has a single digit for the year(7). Large T in vicinty of casting number seems to have disappeared since i acquired the block and overnite, mysteriously, the 1/8 pipe plug mated to the case inboard of the stamp pad. then to make matters worse, the 6 motor mount pads on the side of the case disappeared, again overnite. Next to disappear was the clutch bellcrank pivot ball pad. Then the 870 casting # transformed, again overnite while i and the little lady were sleeping,into a 548 casting #. then one mornign i came to the shop and the double hump 202 heads had become a pyramide on rectangle. Next thing i know, this transforming SOB ended up, all by itself, in one of my 57 FI vets.Of course , all of this transpired after the NCRS Chief JUDGE, a mr clark member # 56788, had approved the 57 for its Duntov. Durn thing turns l3.1 with cooker 6.70/15. Just love it., regards, mike

[Patrick H.]

Re: Ok Jack....I'll bite

In addition, there are a few 1965 Corvettes and 1972 Corvettes (mine) with Tonawanda blocks.

But yes, generally Tonawanda blocks (excuse me, cylinder cases) were not used in small cylinder case Corvettes.

Patrick

[Rainer S.]

Re: Ok Jack....I'll bite

The 870 block, which I am thinking of buying in the Phoenix area is a Flint block, since the original engine build dates and Corvette ser #, as well as the square plug at near the chaincover edge, as per photo. I need someone in the Phoenix area to inspect the block. The Seller is willing to bring the block over. If nobody is available, does anybody know a good engine shop, were the block could be inspected ? (at my cost).