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Hard Starting 66 SmallBlock

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  • Steven A.
    Frequent User
    • July 31, 2002
    • 66

    Hard Starting 66 SmallBlock

    I've owned a 1966 Coupe with a 327/300 hp motor for about two years. I have always had a problem with difficult starting. One of the first things I noticed about the car after I bought it was that the choke/fast idle mechanism had been removed and the choke plate was literally wired in the open position. I attributed this to the fact that the car was in Arizona and didn't need a choke. Since I live in Omaha, however, one of my first projects was to have an electric choke installed in the belief that this was going to remedy the hard starting situation I was encountering. However, even with the new choke (which by all appearances seems to be functioning properly), the only way to get the car to start and keep running is to pump the gas pedal at least three times (the accelerator pump seems to shoot two nice stream of gas) and then continue to pump it gingerly for about 60 seconds until the car warms up a bit. This requires a bit a care because if one gets too heavy footed it is easy to cause a backfire. I've read from various posts that this causes damage to the "power valves" (what do these do?), so I try to avoid this. Once the car has warmed up, it runs great. Acceleration is good, idle is good. It's just so touchy getting it started.

    A little additional information may be relevant. Somewhere along the line the stock exhaust manifolds were replaced with headers. The carburetor is a Holley 4160, but I have determined that it is not the original "3367"(?) unit. However, I believe it has roughly the same cfm rating (600 v. 585?). The previous owners of the car thought the original camshaft may have been replaced with a more aggressive one, but they were sure. But again, both these guys thought the car had an L-79 engine instead of the L-75 (which is a whole other story).

    Anyway, my theory is that if the car does in fact have a non-stock cam that it doesn't produce enough vacuum during the starting process to draw enough gas through the idle circuit to get the car started and keep it running. Is that a symptom of these types of camshafts? Can I offset this by "richening" the idle mixture. Also, would a vacuum leak be a likely culprit? BTW, I think the choke is set plenty high since the idle often never comes off the last step of the fast idle cam.

    Two related questions: Is there a way to determine which camshaft is installed in the moter without pulling it? How does one determine if the vacuum secondaries are functioning properly? Again the car seems to run great, so they probably are fine, I'm just curious.

    Any thoughts would be appreciated. Thanks in advance. This is a great resource.
  • Jack H.
    Extremely Frequent Poster
    • April 1, 1990
    • 9906

    #2
    Re: Hard Starting 66 SmallBlock

    It's not unusual to have to pump more than once to get sufficient fuel to cold start the car (especially if it's been sitting). I suspect, the electric choke you've installed isn't properly adjusted though, as once the engine fires it should go up onto high idle and maintain RPM during the engine warm up period.

    On mechanical choke carbs (as you car was originally), a common mistake made by new owners is to fail to fully 'set' the choke for cold start. A lot of us have been driving modern FI based cars that 'wipe their own nose' for so long we forget the original starting proceedure for the older cars....

    That was to SLOWLY and FIRMLY press the accelerator pedal all the way to the floor before cranking the ignition. It's this action that forced the choke to close AND the carb to engage it's high idle setting. If either failed to 'setup' properly (choke plate closure of full high idle engagement of throttle cam), EXACTLY the symptoms you describe can/do occur -- driver has to constantly 'feather' the gas pedal to keep the engine from stalling until she's warmed up.

    There are a number of variations on this theme and two of the 'best' one's I've seen are:

    (1) Owner had throttle linkage improperly routed/connected preventing full WOT when accelerator pedal was all the way to the floor.

    (2) Owner had done interior restoration improperly and the carpet height was TOO HIGH preventing the pedal from really going all the way to the floor.

    Comment

    • Steven A.
      Frequent User
      • July 31, 2002
      • 66

      #3
      Re: Hard Starting 66 SmallBlock

      Jack: What has me confused is that I have removed the air cleaner assembly and manually opened the throttle and watched (i) the choke plate close and (ii) the fast idle cam (little red plastic dude) move into the correct position. I then slip into the driver's seat and crank and crank and nothing happens until I start pumping the accelerator. Once the motor is warmed up, I can move the fast idle cam by hand and the motor will run about 1800 rpm (which seems reasonable). So my conclusion was that the choke/fast idle system is working as it's supposed to. I may be wrong. My mechanic just grins and says "welcome to the world of Holley carburetors." Maybe he is right, but I think it should work better than it does.

      Thanks. I always enjoy reading your interesting and informative posts.

      Comment

      • Jim T.
        Expired
        • March 1, 1993
        • 5351

        #4
        Re: Hard Starting 66 SmallBlock

        I have Holley's on my 68 and my 70 as replacement carburators of choice to replace my originals and no problems with starting cold. Engines hardly even turn over before firing off if driven the day before.
        If when your removed your air cleaner and watched the choke plate close when you operated the primarys to set the choke, was there a good steady stream of fuel produced by the accelerator pump into the throttle bore?

        Comment

        • David W.
          Very Frequent User
          • December 1, 1999
          • 272

          #5
          Re: Hard Starting 66 SmallBlock

          Might be a too obvious point but is the gas old? Similar starting problems can occur with 2 year old petro.

          Comment

          • Bill Braun 33186

            #6
            Sure you got a good strong spark? *NM*

            Comment

            • Steven A.
              Frequent User
              • July 31, 2002
              • 66

              #7
              Re: Hard Starting 66 SmallBlock

              Thanks for the suggestions, everyone. I really think this isn't a carb/choke issue. Over the weekend, I went out an purchase a timing light and vacuum gauge and discovered that the initial advance was very low (about 2 deg. BTDC) and I was only pulling about 7 inches of vacuum at idle (750 rpm). I'm running a Mallory Unilite distributor with no vacumm advance (the original distributor is safely stored away in by basement), which I think gives me about 24-28 degrees of total advance. After reading a bunch of posts, I decided to up the initial advance up to about 16 degrees. The idle improved significantly and is now pulling over 12 inches at idle. I went back and set up the idle screws for best vacuum and then took her out for a drive. Boy, what a difference!! I had much better "pull" at low speed and it just ran great. No detonation at any speed/load conditions.

              Anyway, I was pretty pleased with myself until the next morning when I tried to cold start it again. I took off the air cleaner so I could watch the choke plate from inside the car and it close up nicely. Expecting it to fire right up, I was again disappointed and needed to pump it a bit to get it to fire. It idled "on its own" (no need to "feather" the accelerator) much quicker than before, but I still think it should start easier.

              My suspicion now runs to the coil/ballast resistor. I understand that the resistor is supposed to be bypassed during starting to get the hottest spark. Is it possible that this bypass function isn't working properly?? How does one check for that? I just had all the under dash/underhood wiring replaced by someone I believe is good at what he does, so I wouldn't think the wiring is hooked up incorrectly.

              Since I no longer run points, can I just take the resister out of the circuit altogether?

              Any thoughts would be welcome and appreciated.

              Comment

              • Brian Monticello

                #8
                Re: Hard Starting 66 SmallBlock

                Not sure if this was asked originally but are you getting an adequate pump shot to prime the engine? After playng with the choke and the timing and the plugs...etc I found that the gas in my carb evaporates after sitting for periods of time (weekend driver) and I do not get a pump shot because the fuel level in the bowls is too low. I drip some fuel in the carb and POW! starts right up.

                just a thought.
                Brian

                Comment

                • Jack H.
                  Extremely Frequent Poster
                  • April 1, 1990
                  • 9906

                  #9
                  Re: Hard Starting 66 SmallBlock

                  I doubt your hard start (cold) is an electrical issue because the engine does fire. But, you can satisfy yourself on this.

                  One side of the ballast resistor will be 'hot' during run with the opposite side that feeds the coil 'cold' due to the voltage divider action across the ballast resistor. The side that feeds the coil should have two wires going to it (one is the coil and the other is the bypass from the starter/solenoid).

                  Connect a voltmeter to ground and probe the ballast. One side should exhibit full battery voltage while the opposite side reads lower by several volts EXCEPT when the engine is cranking (due to the extra wire that's the bypass from the starter).

                  Solid state ignition modules typically require a separate/discrete line to power themselves. The exception is M&H Fabricators' 'Breakerless SE' system which is a 1-wire, drop-in unit. The reason is, internal logic to run the ignition circuitry depends on TTL logic levels being 'achievable'. When the ignition module's power lead is fed from the secondary of the ballast (battery voltage dropped), you can get into a Catch-22 situation where a low battery (car left sitting) combined with just started (bypass of the ballast released when you let off on the ignition switch; start to run position) with the alternator/generator not having sufficient time to pump the low battery back up to full charge causes the SS ignition module to fire during 'start' then die when the key is released to the 'run' position. Essentially, you can 'starve' the SS ignition module for voltage.

                  The Breakerless SE system was intentionally designed to work with VERY low battery voltages and it really doesn't care where it gets power from. Hence, there's no need to bus an extra wire into the distributor for dedicated, full battery level power supply to the SS ignition module. Other mfgrs with earlier designs, DO need a dedicated power lead and their instruction manuals typically tell you make sure the 'extra' wire feeding the module's power input is connected to a power source in the engine compartment that's 'upstream' from the ballast.

                  The fact that the cold engine starts, tries to start, then runs AT ALL after you release the key, tells me your problem lies in the cold idle air/fuel mixture and/or choke/throttle plate angle vs. an ignition electrical 'funny'....

                  Comment

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