Tire question for the Judges

[chris burbage]

I have a 65 that I will be entering into flight judging in August. I currently have a set of DOT Firestone Deluxe Champion Goldline bias ply tires on the car. I did some searching in the archives and there was a message stating that although Firestone provided goldlines they were not the Deluxe Champion model. Can anyone confirm this? If that is the case how many points will I lose leaving the car as is and entering it with the Deluxe Champion tires?

Thanks,

Chris

[Joe C.]

Re: Tire question for the Judges

Chris:

Firestone never made goldlines/redlines with the "Deluxe Champion" brand--they were branded "Super Sports", which are no longer available. Super Sports actually had 1/2" more tread width than the "champs", and were supposedly specially made high perf tires for the '65-'68 Corvette. They were superceded by the bias belted, or "wide oval" tires in late 1968.

Regarding points loss, I believe the TIM&JG has an "incorrectly branded" line in the Standard Deduction section for tires.

Joe

[Robert C.]

Re: Tire question for the Judges

Standard tires for 65 does include "Firestone Deluxe Champion" brand. Original tire do NOT have DOT numbers. Your tires are probably repro's with the DOT numbers molded into the tire as well as a "Load Range B" rating replacing the 4 ply/2ply rating. No original "Deluxe Champion" was a goldline. You will probably receive a 20% deduction for your tires. You may want to invest in an original spare as the spare tire is judged separatly.

[Joe C.]

Re: Tire question for the Judges

Bob:

Since Chris has "Deluxe Champion" goldlines, he will lose more than 20%, because they are incorrectly branded. If his tires were "Deluxe Champion" whitewalls, as originally offered, but have DOT markings, then I think the "hit" is 10%. The exactamundo percentages can be referenced in the standard deduction section of the TIM&JG.

BTW: Hopefully, no one actually DRIVES their car if it is fitted with a set of non DOT tires, as the rubber is probably fossilized by now.

Joe

[chris burbage]

Re: Tire question for the Judges

Bob,
I am trying to locate my copy of the judging guide but unfortunately we are remodeling the house at the moment and things are in disarray. If I understand your comment the JG addresses the manufacturer, Firestone, and the brand, Deluxe Champion, when considering point deductions. One of the local NCRS judges told me that he considered the "brand" to be Firestone and was not concerned with the "model" i.e. Deluxe Champion.

Very confusing but much thanks for the input.

Anyone else care to comment?

[John H.]

Re: Tire question for the Judges

Yup, how about this - our organization professes to encourage driving and enjoying our classic Corvettes, but only allows full judging credit to tires that are patently unsafe and dangerous to drive on; it doesn't matter if those old tires "appear" checked or cracked or deteriorated or not - 30-40-year-old tires, even if they "look" perfect, are a serious safety hazard just due to aging of the compounds and materials. All this does is enrich the few people who have hoarded those old non-DOT tires and peddle them at astronomical prices to people who only "drive" their Corvettes on and off hermetically-sealed trailers. This safety-related tire judging paradox needs attention. I'll go back to sleep now

[Jack H.]

Wake up....

there are other 'disconnects' in the Flight process too. For mid-70 era Sharks, the factory tire was the Firestone 500 Radial (known to have cost several Ohio State Troopers their lives in high speed pursuit incidents). Also, read the NCRS Judging Reference Manual (the 'white' book) with respect to club policy on judging cars that were 'changed' from factory original configuration due to legitimate GM recall campaigns. Hey, some of these changes were done because there was a clear and present threat to life, limb, property!!!!!!!!

Now, look at the opposite side of the coin. Those who want a trailer queen judged, RARELY drive it beyond the 12-mile limit of a performance verification test. Those who DO run their Corvettes a serious distance to a judging event, get so many milage driven bonus points, that idiotic items like driving on 'rotten' non-DOT, factory original tires becomes a complete non-issue.

So, there IS rhyme and reason to our club policy of encouraging folks to drive/use their cars AND have them Flight judged. But, the truly serious restorer pursuing the top honor of a MoE (Mark of Excellence) award, isn't really going to do anything funky/dangerous along the way. Plus, there IS some level of personal judgement call in each/every restoration....

[Joe C.]

Re: Tire question for the Judges

Chris:

Your NCRS judge is mistaken. Consider the following:

Kleenex brand tissues are manufactured by Kimberly Clark corporation.
Frigidaire brand appliances were once manufactured by General Motors corporation.

Ya folla!

Here is an excerpt from the Judging Reference Manual:

Deduct 10%----"..........tires which differ from orig. only because of the DOT marking......."

Deduct 40%----"Reproduction tires of non-OEM brand having correct size and sidewall specs."

Joe

[chris burbage]

Re: Tire question for the Judges

Joe,

I understand exactly what you mean by the manufacturer / brand name relationship having spent some time working at an AD agency. I did find my copy of the judging guide and the confusion may stem from inconsistant wording. Under the Original Tires section they word it as "original equipment manufacturer and trade names". Then under Reproduction Tires they specify "OEM brand name identification".

I do not however have access in my judging guide to the percentages for point deductions. How many points are allocated to the tires section? I am considering purchasing a repro set of DOT Goodyear Power Cushions goldlines from Kelsey Tire. I assume they would be given a 10% deduction!?!

Chris

[Joe C.]

Way To Go!!

Chris:

The Goodyears are the smart move if you want gold/redlines. Got mine from Kelsey a couple years ago @ around $150 each. Definately worth the xtra scratch. They are are slightly more aggressive, with 1/2" wider tread width (they look like WIDE bicycle tires).
Assuming that all judges are not former ad agency employees, and further, that 10%-15% of them are somewhat literate, you will avoid any misreading of the Standard Deduction table while giving your car that "wide, aggressive bicycle tire" look. Expect the 10% hit for the DOT markings.

Joe

[chris burbage]

Re: Way To Go!!

How many points are at stake for tires?

How many points do you get for driving to the event?

[Joe C.]

Re: Way To Go!!

Tires, Including Spare:

30 originality + 30 condition = 60 total

Driving Points, not more than 10% of net score. Figured as 1% of total miles driven, rounded DOWN to the next sig dig.

Joe

[chris burbage]

Re: Way To Go!!

Joe,

Thanks for the info. I'll order the tires from Kelsey Tire and finish off a few other items and get it into the flight judging.