Update - eBay Chevelle-Tagged Corvette

[Clem Z.]

Re: Update - eBay Chevelle-Tagged Corvette

mrs clem was a title clerk for years at the dealership and the state screws up more titles by transposing or just plain typing the wrong serial number on the title and it is never caught till you apply for a new title because the orignal owner never check the numbers. then the S--T hit the fan

[Chas Kingston]

[Al S.]

Re: Update - eBay Chevelle-Tagged Corvette

John,
Paramount Pictures may want to by the rights of this story for a movie....
I hear they want to call it "John Hinckley ....Vette Detective" and their thinking of Jim Carey to play you! All kidding aside, great work and great column in C.E. Look out Lo-Jack!

[Chas Kingston]

Re: NAW --

They'd get him confused w/ the asassain and wouldn't THAT be a messy story!!

Geezer

[Mike Cobine]

Re: Update - eBay Chevelle-Tagged Corvette

First, I'd like to say great job, John, and I think we all should watch for such. Without keeping a watchful eye out, thieves get away with stealing Corvettes and that puts all of ours at risk. The more risk we can take out, the less insurance has to be paid out, and we all benefit by being able to afford to drive our cars and feeling somewhat assured we can actually park it somewhere and it not disappearing.

That said, the devil's advocate comes out.

Part of it is because I have some friends who have gone through a similar incident.

In this case, what exactly is accomplished?

1. Current owner is out one car, or $20,000 give or take depending on what he paid, when, etc. How does he recover if he is legit?

2. The owner who lost it may end up with a big windfall, since it may be in much better shape now that it was in '80. It is worth a heck of a lot more, that is for sure.

3. Depending on what NICB records, the last legal owner may or may not be found. Do they record if there is an insurance settlement? Do they list the owner or simply that the vehicle S/N XXXXX was stolen? Does it depend on local records to obtain the details of the case and if so, do the local records still exist 23 years later? Will anyone local even care or bother with it?

4. (This is the important one) will the thief get caught?

5. Will the first registered owner on the phoney VIN be found and will he remember who he bought the car from? (remember how states keep title records) That first seller is the one who sold stolen goods and deserves punishment, too, else there will be a market for stolen Corvettes and ours are at risk.

6. Will it get to the rightful owner, who may be an insurance company and could be out of business or swallowed up in a merger, or end up in a police auction?

7. Is the seller going to be charged with selling stolen goods? Does he deserve that or not?

8. Was it really stolen from the last legal owner, or was it an insurance fraud? You'd be surprised at how many show up like that?

I had three friends who I'll call Tim, Slim, and Jim.

Tim bought a '61 Corvette. It was an ex-drag car back on the street and he bought it mostly as a rolling body circa the early '70s. Tim put a lot of work in it but couldn't sell it as such, so ended up pulling engine and trans out and a few higher dollar '61 items and selling it as a body to Slim.

Slim put a lot of work in, dropped in one of his drag engines, had some fun, then pulled the engine to sell to Jim.

Jim put in his own built engine, replaced parts, painted, cleaned it up a lot, and sold it.

The state came calling as the VIN was to a '62 Impala. None of them knew that (pre-Black Book, NCRS, etc.) as the state dutifully issued a title to them each without hassle, but since they each had the car, and had removed parts they were each investigated and in for legal hassles.

They ended up clear, but they had legal expenses and the hassles of dealing with possible records. Jim ended up short on the money as either he lost the car or he was sued by the guy who bought it from him. I was never clear if the guy actually bought it or was buying it when this happened, but I know Jim lost a bunch.

No one knew whether the car ever saw the original owner or if the one who changed the VIN ever got caught.

In their case, was justice ever served?

Will justice be served in this one?

As such, I'm sure we would all like to know the outcome on this one when it finally ends. Keep us posted, John. Maybe this is a project for NCRS - stolen vehicles section - reports and follow-ups.

then maybe things like this will end:

http://www.i-depth.com/P/d/d00004.frm.gz-pastowner.msg/1391.html

http://www.motortrend.com/features/news/112_news030520_vette

http://www.whog.fm/news_html2/1023179828.shtml

http://edmunds.com/news/regularnews/articles/100223/article.html

http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/2003-05-01-classic-cars_x.htm

http://www.dumbcrooks.com/October142002.htm

http://www.beloitdailynews.com/598/5wis27.htm

[Clem Z.]

this deal is like

getting a counterfit $20 bill,if you turn it over to the goverment you are out $20 but if you pass it in a dark bar you have covered your loss, why be stupid if you end up with a stolen car get rid of it so you are not out of the money because turning it in will do nothing but leave you poorer.

[Mike McKown]

Re: Update - eBay Chevelle-Tagged Corvette

To answer part of your question:

If NICB records indicate VIN XXXXXXXXXXXXXXX is stolen, it will also have a reference to some document that got the number on the hot list. This would usually be something like a police report from some jurisdiction, somewhere. This will give them a name to start owner search and this can/will start 10 minutes after the number comes back hot. With the newer "long" vin numbers, they can trace the car all the way back to the manufacturers Certificate of Origin. With the shorter, older VIN numbers, maybe.

If the frame numbers are still intact, they can trace it back to the stolen vehicle police report in 1980. If the numbers are gone, I would think the only thing they have is a case of the VIN numbers being illegaly removed from the vehicle. The Chevelle number could be entirely legitimate (not stolen). They may be able to trace the Chevelle number back and make an assumption of who changed the number on the car.

In other words, if the Corvette numbers are missing and undetectable and they can't backtrack on the Chevelle numbers, my guess is the current owner of the car will keep it.

For what it's worth, if you transfer a car in from out of state in Indiana, the NCIB check is required and this number on this car would have rung the bell as fraudulent.

[Mike McKown]

PS

If whoever did this conversion was dumb enough to leave any of the numbered assemblys in this car like the engine, trans or rear end, it can be traced.

I meant this post and the one above as hypothetical as the car has already been traced to stolen in 1980 in New Jersey.

[John H.]

Re: Update - eBay Chevelle-Tagged Corvette

Mike -

Per the FL cops, the NICB has records of ALL insurance company payoffs on stolen cars, and that's how they're tracking back to the owner at the time the car was stolen; if it wasn't insured (highly unlikely), backtracking it becomes more difficult, although law enforcement has tools available to them that we don't have in this regard. They are also VERY interested in how the seller came into possession of the car, and from whom - they're backtracking that too so they can try and determine who is chargeable as the thief and whether the seller was part of the conspiracy, knowingly received stolen property, or is just stupid for buying a Corvette with a Chevelle VIN plate. There is no theft report on the Chevelle the VIN plate and trim tag came from - it's probably a junker somewhere.

Ironically, the Captain of the Auto Theft Unit has a '67 427/435 roadster, and really enjoyed this investigation - he told me "it got me out of the office and really made my day"

[Mike Cobine]

Re: Update - eBay Chevelle-Tagged Corvette

Thaks, John. Like I said, I think it is good that you did it. I was only devil's advocate since so many were going on that this was a WIN-WIN situation, when while it is good to recover a stolen Corvette, there are many others who get stung through this. Of course, today, they got stung because of ignorance in checking out a Corvette VIN, but 23 years ago, not that many knew about checking out Corvette VINs.

Let's face it, unless you are a hardcore car nut, you probably have no idea whether a VIN matches the car or not; you only know if the VIN on the title matches the one on the VIN plate. You probably wouldn't even think to check.

As to insured, that is a 50/50 proposition. In 1980, that car was worth $4000 to $10,000, probably more like $5000. So it may have been insured if the owner bought it in '79 or '80. But if he bought it in '75 or '76, he may have paid $2000 to $4000 and with insurance at $1000/6 months, probably didn't insure it more than the state required liability once any loan was paid, in which case there is no insurance claim.

Of course, the captain is a Corvette fan so he will put a little more effort into this one and we may get a happy ending to it not too long from now.

It is interesting that they have so much information, as going the other way, trying to go through FL DMV to get a car titled and be sure it is clean and trace history results in almost no information. I had that hassle in '87 with one that was in Florida at least from '70 to '87 and didn't have a title, and Florida was little help in finding anything about it or getting the title. When I asked specifically about being stolen, they said it wasn't on their hotsheets, but they seemed vague about just what "their hotsheets" covered, and implied that the car could have been stolen further back than their hotsheets went. When I asked specifically about it checking clear with the NICB, I was informed that they couldn't do that without a police case.

So a person buying this car in the past could have tried to find out if it was clear, and the state of Florida would have done little to let them know it wasn't kosher.

(This is a state that when I asked about a copy of the Motor Vehicle Code in the '80s, I was told it was none of my business by the chief of the FHP in Tallahassee. In Illinois, you could request a copy from the Sec. of State for free.)

Keep us posted on what happens. Hopefully, the bad guys will get caught.

[Bill W.]

Re: Update - eBay Chevelle-Tagged Corvette

I have worked at car dealers for the last 35 years. & worked with ins. co. almost that long.Ill bet nowhere on that title is the word Corvette .it probably says chevrolet conv.It should have been caught along time ago. Ill bet there is a past owner that didnt have it insured ,didnt own it a long time,and sold it a little to cheap.and I bet he bought a rough old chevelle around the same time....buyer beware.. BILL

[Kevin #38315]

Re: Update - eBay Chevelle-Tagged Corvette

Gee, I wonder how many past owners of this car got a break on their insurance premium because the insurance company thought it was a chevelle instead of a vette?

Would it be possible/useful to put up a list of stolen VIN number up on the NCRS website? It would seem like a simple list with VIN, description and contact info would be an easy way for a buyer to check suspicious vehicles on the market.

Kevin

[Craig S.]

Re: Update - eBay Chevelle-Tagged Corvette

Clem - I had this happen once on one of my cars....the good thing about AZ right now is they print the title while you wait, you can check it, and the will fix it and print another if there is an error. Used to be a mail process and you got it much later...Craig

[Craig S.]

Re: Update - eBay Chevelle-Tagged Corvette

Duke - the in state transfers they pay no attention at all, it's mostly the transfer into the state point and it is not the desk clerk but the inspector outside the looks over the car. This is only done on new transfers into the state. The clerks pay little attention inside....Craig

[Mike Cobine]

Re: Update - eBay Chevelle-Tagged Corvette

I checked the copies of several of mine. Most simply say Chevrolet and body style (coupe, tudor, or convertible).

The one for my '67 is interesting as I have the history of it back to Jan. 1967. It starts off with Chevrolet Corvette Spt Cpe Purchased 1 12 67 and then changed on each new title:
Chevrolet Corvette Cpe
Chevrolet Stingray
Chevrolet Corvette
Chevrolet Corvette
Chevrolet Corv 2dr
Chev Corv 2dr
Chevrolet Corv 2 dr
Chevrolet Corv 2 dr

Some of the others are Chevrolet Convertible, Chevrolet Spt Cpe, Chevrolet tudor, and Chevrolet conv.

Even when it says Chevrolet Corv 2 dr, you could have either a coupe of a convertible as they are both 2 dr models.