Regarding my "11,000 mile" 1967 Vette

[Patrick T.]

Just to set the record straight, below is an unretouched scan of the New Jersey title that I received when I bought this car at Carlisle. This is an official document from the state of New Jersey, so how can I argue with that?

Of course even a moron like myself, would know that 11,780 miles can't possibly be the actual mileage.

So I say to the world, the Maryland Department of Motor Vehicles, the NCRS Technical Discussion Board, the Corvette Forum and anyone else who gives a crap that the mileage on the title is NOT, I repeat NOT, the actual mileage. I DO NOT know how many miles are on the car, and I say this without predjudice towards any person or entity. I rest my case. Jury dismissed.

[Clem Z.]

mrs clem was a title clerk at the dealership

and she had the DMV put 112,000 on a older corvett title because they told her that any car that old could not have just 12,000 miles on it and they would not change it.

[Brian McHale]

Re: Regarding my "11,000 mile" 1967 Vette

Then why not correct the mistake by keeping the original MD title instead of continuing the lie with the Re-issued title.

[Patrick T.]

Re: Regarding my "11,000 mile" 1967 Vette

Based on the preponderance of evidence, as shown below in "Exhibit A" (The New Jersey Title), I submit that neither you nor anyone else has a clue or shred of evidence to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that my intent was to defraud anyone, now or in the future.

Why don't you ask the Maryland Motor Vehicle Administration for a copy of my current title? Of course, the Maryland Privacy Act of 1999 will require that I give my written consent to let you have a copy. Good Luck, and remember....have a nice day!!!

[Brian McHale]

Re: Regarding my "11,000 mile" 1967 Vette

The only thing that you have said that is not a lie is that You are a moron.

[John M.]

Re: Regarding my "11,000 mile" 1967 Vette

Anyone who would use the mileage stated on a title as evidence of the true mileage of a 30+ year old car is a moron. There was a 1960 on Ebay a few weeks ago that said it only had 6000 original miles on it as well, but it was obvious from the pictures that it had been around the loop at once before! Without much evidence via service records or similar documents, the numbers on the title are just that. I allways set the odometer to 0 when I replace them, but I do not think that anybody in their right mind thinks that my 60 only had 380 miles on it!

Regards, John McGraw

[Patrick T.]

Pardon me Brian....

BUT WOULD YOU MIND REPEATING THAT MESSAGE? I AM HARD OF HEARING YOU KNOW...AND ALWAYS REMEMBER TO....HAVE A NICE DAY!!!!

[Patrick T.]

Re: Regarding my "11,000 mile" 1967 Vette

Thank you John, for the intelligent response. I hope you have a lot of kids, because the current gene pool sure will need them for our future. Just thinking that I am a moron and my 23 year old son is a Rocket Scientist makes me laugh!!!

Best Regards, Patrick

[M W.]

Re: Regarding my "11,000 mile" 1967 Vette

Patrick,
I personally do not see why everyone is in such a uproar. You are only trying to point out the fact that the DMV did not follow the rules. Period. Now if the car is sold down the road either by you or your heirs and is known to be of higher milage than stated on the title then this would constitute fraud. Here in NC vehicles of your age and mine are mileage exempt. So the mileage on the title would be a mute point anyway.
At the present time you are totally in the right. Keep on trucking.
Have a great day,
Craig Willetts
1961 2x4 245 HP

[Dave Suesz]

Actually, I have seen much lower...

For instance, a friend of mine just bought a 1994 Mustang Pace Car with 17 miles on it. It was never titled, never even dealer prepped, still has the plastic wrappers, floor covers, stickers and window crayon markings from the factory. Come to think of it, I have never seen a BOSS 429 with more than about 35k on it.

[Dale P.]

Re: more then one "questionable" car out there

I just could not help to write this little tid bit .. there is a 1967 corvette in the state of Florida .. white on red with a red stinger .. it is a "documented" 427/435 HP car .. even passed NCRS judging .. has won awards etc etc ... this car has the tank sticker . full owner history .. documented milage everything ... except it is a fake .. I owned this car .. in fact my father owned it too a FACT I can prove ... yet this car has passed at least from one person to an other as being an "oginal" 435 HP car ... and I have no doubt that it will pass again to an other individual as being same .. the car is NOT a 435 HP car does NOT have the orginal 427 in it and in fact I am not sure what still remains of the car as being correct ... yet it stills passes NCRS judging and is still climbing in value and is still a fake car .. I informed both the current owner and previous owner that this car was NOT a 427/435 HP car .. but they really don't seem to care .. until laws are enacted to protect the buyer from such fraud ALWAYS doubt the owners words .. for they have everything to gain and nothing to loose! BUYER BE WARE !!!!!!!! If it sounds to good to be true it usually is .. nothing against the NCRS judges .. they are all very talented people .. but there is always a master that can counterfit anything . even well enough to get past the judges

[John M.]

Re: more then one "questionable" car out there

Dale,
The key to judging is whether the car appears correct, not whether it is or not. Even if you state your car has a re-stamped block in it it will be judged on it's appearance and not your statment. If a paint job looks like the original, it gets full points, and likewise if the stamp looks like an original it too will get full points. The issue of misrepresenting a car at sale is a different issue and has no connection to a car's judging history. While it is unfortunate that some people view the scoring of a car at flight judging to be an indication of a car's originality, it is not so and I hope that NCRS judges never get in the business of judging cars on such a basis. I take great pride in being able to recreate the original look of many components on solid axle cars, and indeed this is what flight judging is all about! I have never had a car which has needed a block restamped to compete in flight judging, but I would not hesitate to do so if nedded. I would however, NEVER represent that block as anything other than a skillful recreation of the original to a buyer of the car. The real problem is when the car changes hands again and again, it is incumbent upon all sellers to be as forthright as I am when I sell it. We all know what the chances of that are!

Regards, John McGraw

[Dale P.]

Re: more then one "questionable" car out there

Not to continue to bash this issue but if one makes changes to a car based on it gaining in value that is pure and simple fraud ... it is clearly stated in the judging guidelines

COUNTERFEIT: "To make an imitation of something else with the intent to deceive or defraud".

For instance, the following would be examples of counterfeiting:

-Repainting an original blue car red and changing the trim tag to make red appear to be the original color.

-Installing a red interior in a car that left the factory with a blue interior and changing the trim tag to make red appear to be the original color interior.

-Replacing the engine of an original small block Corvette with a big block and stamping numbers on it to make it appear to be an original big block engine.

-Replacing the carburetor on an engine with a fuel injection unit and stamping the numbers and suffix code on the block to make it appear to be original.

However, what you say as long as it looks correct .. then it is OK to be judged and receive the points that it deserves even though it is not correct .. don't agree with that statement ..

[Patrick T.]

Re: more then one "questionable" car out there

Dale, I'm not an expert at this, but I think you need to make a lot of expensive changes to make a small block Midyear car into a big block car. The battery goes on the drivers side, the rear end needs to have a stabilizer bar, the hood support has to go on the drivers side etc.

I'm glad I have a small block '67, who ever tried to forge a small block car?

[John M.]

Re: more then one "questionable" car out there

Dale,
However if you read further you will find that stamping a new correct date block to match the numbers that were on the original is considered restoration!
Sometimes the line can get pretty fuzzy, especially on early models where you do not have the trim tag to attest to the correct configuration of the paint and interior. We all know what is right and what is not, unfortunately some just don't care! Imagine if you will, a C1 that you acquire with an incorrect engine. How would know which engine the car was built with without the aid of documentation? In my opinion, it is wrong to take a known base engine car and convert it to a 270 HP engine, but to put such an engine in a car which has no evidence to the contrary would not be. If we get to the point where only complete correct and original cars are judged, then the judging fields will get very small! The one thing you can pretty much take to the bank is that if a car has a base engine in it is probably correct, as I have never seen anyone counterfit a base engine car!

Regards, John McGraw