Regarding my "11,000 mile" 1967 Vette

[Brian McHale]

Re: more then one "questionable" car out there

Just another base engine car with cloudy paperwork.

[Dave Suesz]

One thing Ford got right...

The original engine type is in the VIN! No matter how perfectly you put a 428 in a Mustang, if the VIN says xxxxFxxxxxx, the F (302 2V) flags it as a fake! On my own 'Vette, the original engine was ruined by a cracked piston in 1964. The block we used to replace it is very close date-wise all I need to do is stamp one more letter on the pad. Ain't gonna do it! Call me a Boy Scout (I was) but I have more pride pointing out how hard we worked at getting it right than I would claiming it was "original". Anybody lucky enough to get an original engine car can do "nothing", and still be original. My car is exact except for that missing letter, and I went to some trouble to get there!

[Clem Zahrobsky (45134)]

could the NCRS

be held a "accessory to fraud" in these cases where they certified these corvettes?

[Mike Cobine]

Re: could the NCRS

NCRS has a lot of CYA built into all their documents that state basically you cannot use NCRS Judging as a basis to originality of the car.

However, their insistence that restamping is restoration when the stamp was the indicator of originality may not do to well if challenged in court. Price of cars has been down so much no one is losing $200,000 on fake cars right now.

While restamping may be restoration to the car, it is counterfeiting to the block, and that is very much unlike creating reproduction pieces, which were not anything before.

The block was a real F0102SA before it became an F0513RF and that is a counterfeit.

[John McGraw (31656)]

Re: could the NCRS

Mike,
Unfortunately, using this logic, replacing the trashed out body on my 59 with another body and putting the VIN plate back in the door jamb would be counterfeiting as well. The problem with this whole issue in my opinion, is the disproportionate value placed on the number that is stamped on the pad, by people who are INVESTING in Corvettes rather than enjoying the RESTORATION of them. The whole reason that we do what we do is because we are passionate about keeping old Corvettes running and looking like the day they left the factory.
There are many Top Flight cars which were put together from many parts from many cars and brought back to a condition that is indicative of how they looked when new, and I think that the people who have the skills to do so should be applauded for their efforts and not branded as counterfeiters!
I truly belive that the value of a restored car is tied more to the quality of it's restoraton than it's actual originality, and applying a large premimum to the value of a car for it's "originality" is an investor viewpoint and not an enthusiast view. Now, obviously there are those truly original cars such as Bowtie cars and cars of historical intrest that will allways bring a premimum price due to their very nature. It is just beyond me why we have no problem wtih a car which has a new paint, interior, most major mechanical components, and perhaps a good portion of it's body panels replaced, yet decry a car with a re-stamped pad as a counterfeit! If this is counterfeiting then so is putting a new tag on a generator or radiator to match the car's build date, as well as hunting down the correct date casting for a rearend, master cyl,carb, trans, ect, ect.

Regards, John McGraw

[mikemccagh]

Re: could the NCRS

John: i don't regard restamping an 870 block with the 300 hp suffix on the pad of the resto motor due to the cars orig 300hp 327 having been removed years ago,. What i do have a problem with is installing a FI suffixed 327 in an originally equipped 300 hp vet. Worse yet is creating a 67 435 restmped block for insertion in a 67 vet that left st louis with a small block engine. regards, mike

[John McGraw (31656)]

Re: could the NCRS

Mike,
I could not agree with you more! The big problem however, gets back to the issue of how you separate the wheat form the chaff. This makes it incumbent on everybody to be honest, and assumes that the chain of honesty follows the many owners of the car. Even with all the dishonest sellers out there, I still believe that charging NCRS flight judging with filtering out such cars, is unworkable and will do nothing but harm the hobby. If judging becomes so subjective that even authentic cars risk being labled a fraud, then poeple will quit having their cars judged. If someone has bought such a car then there are legal options available to you, but to expect NCRS to protect you from yourself is unreasonable. As long as there are people wanting the fastest or most rare Corvette out there, then there will be those who will be willing to create one for them, and sometimes the end product will be undetectable. This is simply a byproduct of the knowledge and skills that have been mastered by restorers over the years.

Regards, John McGraw

[Mike Cobine]

Re: could the NCRS

You have a problem not simply because the engine is wrong and it is protrayed as something it isn't, but also because the value increased drastically, say from $20,000 to $50,000 and these people are making huge profits at someone else's expense.

But those restamping that 300 hp engine are doing the same, if you look at current market prices. An NOM car goes for maybe $25,000. That same car with the original engine goes for $35,000 quite often.

There is a huge monetary incentive to restamp a block, even if correct for the car, so the market value is greater.

And that goes back to the root of your original complaint: they restamp to realize a much greater profit. If there was no profit, would anyone bother to restamp?

I say no, because 25 years ago, there was no profit in having an original number engine vs the one built from parts or a donor car and no one restamped engines then (except thieves on stolen cars).

[Mike Cobine]

Re: could the NCRS

Twenty-five years ago, there were two types of Corvettes - the hot rodded and built-up ones and the original ones. Each had a value for different reasons. The hot rodded one had the value of the work, the quality of work, and the craftsmanship that was done. This is still the same today, except that few modify Corvettes but rather restore them. And their value is the quality of the restoration.

Then there were the originals. Their value was not so much beign original as what original represented. It was a car that survived. It was a time-traveler. It reminded us of where we had been. Kind of like the Japanese soldier who comes out 30 years after WWII.

The first was a monetary value, directly related to the workmanship.

The second is an intrinsic value, related to how the vehicle relates to the times and the environment it exists in.

Somehow, in all the retoration groups, shows, investing, and insanity, these two have become blurred and people only thing in terms of monetary value.

The '68 L88 near Orlando on ebay last week, if real, isn't really worth much monetarily. It was a mess. It had been in a shed for 20 or 25 years or more. It will cost a fortune to fix and make presentable. If it weren't a Corvette, you'd pay someone to haul it off and junk it.

However, it is worth a fortune in information, again if real.

The buying public don't understand this distinction, and actually, few Corvette people understand it. They only know the buzz - "matching numbers" and "rare".

If the investors would go away, we wouldn't have this problem. However, if the investors went away, we wouldn't have half of the reproduction parts or events that we have today. It is truly a double-edged sword.