Engine Pad Verification - how is it done ?

[Craig Jewett]

I had my car judged last week at a chapter event. I was told that the engine pad surface was "inconsistent". Despite my stating that I had had the heads off last year for valve seal replacement and found the factory machining marks on the top of the block to be intact, I was "awarded" a 38 point deduction which made me see red. No benefit of the doubt here. I had cleaned up the pad area prior to the meet to make it legible. The other point worth mentioning is that my pad VIN portion reads 15559 whereas the body VIN is 14875. Everything else is correct on the engine (V0321 HT and casting date Feb 20/67). My argument to the judge was that if a previous owner had had the block "decked" and then restamped the pad, would they have not restamped the numbers and especially the VIN portion to match the body ? It is my belief that what happened long ago with this engine was that perhaps two buddies had bought cars around the same time and then switched engines, and then one or both cars were sold, leaving the incorrect engines in both cars. So the person out there who has 1967 Corvette with a body VIN of 15559 probably has my original block in it..Another one of those events beyond a present owner's control. Has anyone ever heard of this phenomenon occurring ? Is it possible for some higher authority to verify an engine pad by sending a photograph and have it examined ? I wish to avoid the same problem when the car is judged again.

Thanks in advance everybody..

Craig Jewett # 28049 '67 L-79 A/C coupe..

[John H.]

Re: Engine Pad Verification - how is it done ?

Craig -

Unfortunately for your situation, the judging standard is focused on the condition of the car at original customer delivery, and "could" a given part have been on the car originally. Regardless of events subsequent to delivery as you have related, the engine now in the car clearly is not (and could not have been) the one that was in it when it was delivered to the original customer due to the VIN mismatch. We all work to the same judging standard - it's not always easy, but it's fair and consistent, and laid out clearly in the Judging Guide for each year of car and in the Judging Procedure book, both of which are available from NCRS-Cincinnati.

[John H.]

Re: Engine Pad Verification - how is it done ?

Craig -

Unfortunately for your situation, the judging standard is focused on the condition of the car at original customer delivery, and "could" a given part have been on the car originally. Regardless of events subsequent to delivery as you have related, the engine now in the car clearly is not (and could not have been) the one that was in it when it was delivered to the original customer due to the VIN mismatch. We all work to the same judging standard - it's not always easy, but it's fair and consistent, and laid out clearly in the Judging Guide for each year of car and in the Judging Procedure book, both of which are available from NCRS-Cincinnati.

[Jack H.]

Re: Engine Pad Verification - how is it done ?

The first comment I'll donate, is calm down and relax. This is a sport or hobby, not a blood/grudge match. Whether you're judge or owner at a meet, we're all MEMBERS at the bottom line. Judges pay the same dues as owners and we're a body of human beings subject to human frailties, faults and error(s).

Trying to take steps to make sure this/that doesn't happen ever again is futile. Each meet is a fresh/new day and poses a new set of owners and judges repleat with their own strong AND weak points. Nothing is guaranteed in life and that's simply the world we live in.

We do have rules and everyone's welcome to vie for the best from them with the expectation of uniform treatment. Plus, every owner (member) has the right to appeal and I've yet to see a meet where appeals weren't taken seriously and given consideration.

But, it's a real help to walk a mile in the shoes of a judge. He/she has a finite amount of time to render a judgement call on a given item based on personal knowledge (right or wrong) and our support materials (also can be right/wrong). It's a volunteer effort. No judges are getting 'fat' off their heafty NCRS pension checks. Have some sympathy for the poor guy on the other end of the score sheet -- he's your club brother and he's really trying his best to help you earn your award.

To the point, verification of engine pad authenticity is a pretty darn tricky item. It's learned through apprenticeship and it takes literally manyears of voluntary service to get the know how. Things that come into play are examples of known originals, our rules for allowable deviation, and font placement/formation as well as pad broach mark consistency/depth.

Tain't an easy call at all. There was variance at the factory, there were different producing factorys, there were different shifts. The guy who makes the call is under a microscope and it's a lot easier to simply give the owner the benefit of the doubt and duck a controversy than it is to call it like you see it....

But, is this doing the owner or the hobby a favor or disfavor? No, most are honest and call it like they see it even though it makes an occassional hard pill to swallow. But, we do give milage driven credits for actual use of the car (show the colors) and you can make up most deductions if you're willing to put a smile on your face and actually drive to the meet.

Last, when what the judge sees raises a red flag that falls outside his experience window and/or our published rules, the burden falls on the owner to document. Yes, this could have happened, might have been, it's plausible to believe -- are all variations on the theme of factory deviation exceptions that can and do occur. But, the bottom line is we place the burden on the owner of the exception rather than the judge who's on the firing line for documentation AND reasonable documentation IS accepted, I've seen it happen.

If you had a letter from the original owner, a repair order from the delivering dealer, Etc. to document the deviation(s), it might play. But, if you think we're tough or 'bad guys' here at NCRS, try the same scenario at a competitive concours organization like NCCB (Bloomington).

There, a pencil lead taped impression of your stamp pad is lifted. It's sent off to the stamp judge (no you don't get to see him or discuss the issue with him). He compares the facsimilie of your pad to his book of known originals pads and renders a thumbs up/down decision. If it's 'thumbs down' your car (by VIN) is 'boxed out' of Gold Certification regardless of the rest of the car's score!

Heck, we let an owner make up an 'oops' through driving. Each day is a new/fresh outting. Only a car's bottom line showing (None, 3rd, 2nd or Top) is made public so the car can be owner improved. We don't penalize a perfectly good Corvette for the 'sins' of its owners.

I don't mean to soapbox, but I did. There's an awful lot of GOOD things going for this organization and they often get blown off by an isolated instance here/there. That's not the way my NCRS club functions and I really want you to see the whole forest instead of a few trees here/there.

[Jack H.]

Re: Engine Pad Verification - how is it done ?

The first comment I'll donate, is calm down and relax. This is a sport or hobby, not a blood/grudge match. Whether you're judge or owner at a meet, we're all MEMBERS at the bottom line. Judges pay the same dues as owners and we're a body of human beings subject to human frailties, faults and error(s).

Trying to take steps to make sure this/that doesn't happen ever again is futile. Each meet is a fresh/new day and poses a new set of owners and judges repleat with their own strong AND weak points. Nothing is guaranteed in life and that's simply the world we live in.

We do have rules and everyone's welcome to vie for the best from them with the expectation of uniform treatment. Plus, every owner (member) has the right to appeal and I've yet to see a meet where appeals weren't taken seriously and given consideration.

But, it's a real help to walk a mile in the shoes of a judge. He/she has a finite amount of time to render a judgement call on a given item based on personal knowledge (right or wrong) and our support materials (also can be right/wrong). It's a volunteer effort. No judges are getting 'fat' off their heafty NCRS pension checks. Have some sympathy for the poor guy on the other end of the score sheet -- he's your club brother and he's really trying his best to help you earn your award.

To the point, verification of engine pad authenticity is a pretty darn tricky item. It's learned through apprenticeship and it takes literally manyears of voluntary service to get the know how. Things that come into play are examples of known originals, our rules for allowable deviation, and font placement/formation as well as pad broach mark consistency/depth.

Tain't an easy call at all. There was variance at the factory, there were different producing factorys, there were different shifts. The guy who makes the call is under a microscope and it's a lot easier to simply give the owner the benefit of the doubt and duck a controversy than it is to call it like you see it....

But, is this doing the owner or the hobby a favor or disfavor? No, most are honest and call it like they see it even though it makes an occassional hard pill to swallow. But, we do give milage driven credits for actual use of the car (show the colors) and you can make up most deductions if you're willing to put a smile on your face and actually drive to the meet.

Last, when what the judge sees raises a red flag that falls outside his experience window and/or our published rules, the burden falls on the owner to document. Yes, this could have happened, might have been, it's plausible to believe -- are all variations on the theme of factory deviation exceptions that can and do occur. But, the bottom line is we place the burden on the owner of the exception rather than the judge who's on the firing line for documentation AND reasonable documentation IS accepted, I've seen it happen.

If you had a letter from the original owner, a repair order from the delivering dealer, Etc. to document the deviation(s), it might play. But, if you think we're tough or 'bad guys' here at NCRS, try the same scenario at a competitive concours organization like NCCB (Bloomington).

There, a pencil lead taped impression of your stamp pad is lifted. It's sent off to the stamp judge (no you don't get to see him or discuss the issue with him). He compares the facsimilie of your pad to his book of known originals pads and renders a thumbs up/down decision. If it's 'thumbs down' your car (by VIN) is 'boxed out' of Gold Certification regardless of the rest of the car's score!

Heck, we let an owner make up an 'oops' through driving. Each day is a new/fresh outting. Only a car's bottom line showing (None, 3rd, 2nd or Top) is made public so the car can be owner improved. We don't penalize a perfectly good Corvette for the 'sins' of its owners.

I don't mean to soapbox, but I did. There's an awful lot of GOOD things going for this organization and they often get blown off by an isolated instance here/there. That's not the way my NCRS club functions and I really want you to see the whole forest instead of a few trees here/there.