Back in November of 98 a few of us on the discussion board had a conversation about vehicle certification labels. Terry McMannon had stated that a good reproduction label was almost non-existent. There are some fair ones but origins unknown. The label artwork is fairly easy to reproduce. The font in the body of the label is from the Helvetica family. The borderline is a 2 pt. line. (one pt. = 1/72 of an inch) The square box around the GM logo is a one point line. The bar under the letter GM is a three point line. The color is in the teal blue family. I have the percentages that make up this color but won't get into that at this point. The real problem of the label is the typed in font for the serial number and date. Rumor has it the original type is from an IBM Selectric typewriter. The problem with that is that IBM used 19 different font balls which interchanged with the Selectric typewriters. I have worked at IBM now for 20 years and about two months ago I was doing some digging in some old pamphlets and came across typed examples of the different fonts they used. I have discovered there is not one font that covers all the numeric characters needed to create the VIN numbers.I did figure out that if I pulled characters from several different fonts I could come up with the right combination and characteristics to make the proper characters. With today's graphic arts programs it is not too terribly hard to reproduce a qauality label. I guess my question is: Do you think it's possible that General Motors used a scrambled font to make it more difficult for the average person to reproduce? You must understand that I am referring to 1971 and 72 year model cars. 72 is different. I can't comment on anything earlier than 1970, for I haven't seen any original labels. Any comments would be appreciated. -Jerry
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Re: Certification Label Revisited
Talk to M.F. Dobbins someday and the low down on State/Federal criminal and civil litigation he went through in offering his repro cert label. Then, you'll understand why he charges a ridiculous $150 for it!
Think there's a loophole if owner does the 'deed' himself vs. buying a blank one on open market from mfgr party source. A lot of times, in different areas, the IP (intellectual property) angle is skirted by simply giving instructions or kit/tools for the rightful owner to restore/reproduce himself. BUT, this would take some legal due diligence....
As to font, many of the printed items were also done via Teletype in that era and they too had a selection of fonts. IBM Selectric WAS core component for a series of 360 host mainframe poll/select terminals and sure could have been used. Really doubt stuff like this was handtyped for very long in GM Assy Division except maybe during intitial system tool up and/or emergency situations. -
Re: Certification Label Revisited
Talk to M.F. Dobbins someday and the low down on State/Federal criminal and civil litigation he went through in offering his repro cert label. Then, you'll understand why he charges a ridiculous $150 for it!
Think there's a loophole if owner does the 'deed' himself vs. buying a blank one on open market from mfgr party source. A lot of times, in different areas, the IP (intellectual property) angle is skirted by simply giving instructions or kit/tools for the rightful owner to restore/reproduce himself. BUT, this would take some legal due diligence....
As to font, many of the printed items were also done via Teletype in that era and they too had a selection of fonts. IBM Selectric WAS core component for a series of 360 host mainframe poll/select terminals and sure could have been used. Really doubt stuff like this was handtyped for very long in GM Assy Division except maybe during intitial system tool up and/or emergency situations.Comment
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Re: Certification Label Revisited
Jerry----
I recall the discussion that you mentioned on the board earlier. In fact, I recall participating in it. I don't believe, though, that anyone stated with any authority or knowledge that the VIN and date information was typed on the certification labels with an IBM Selectric Typewriter. It was only suggested that an IBM Selectric with fabric-type ribbon might be used to SIMULATE the original characters. I believe that these labels were originally serialized and dated using equipment similar to that used to produce the window stickers of the period. You will note great similarity between the character style/fabric ribbon imprint when comparing original window stickers to the imprinting on these labels.In Appreciation of John HinckleyComment
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Re: Certification Label Revisited
Jerry----
I recall the discussion that you mentioned on the board earlier. In fact, I recall participating in it. I don't believe, though, that anyone stated with any authority or knowledge that the VIN and date information was typed on the certification labels with an IBM Selectric Typewriter. It was only suggested that an IBM Selectric with fabric-type ribbon might be used to SIMULATE the original characters. I believe that these labels were originally serialized and dated using equipment similar to that used to produce the window stickers of the period. You will note great similarity between the character style/fabric ribbon imprint when comparing original window stickers to the imprinting on these labels.In Appreciation of John HinckleyComment
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Re: Certification Label Revisited
Joe is right in that I suggested that a font from the IBM selectric family would SIMULATE the car specific information. As has been said below I doubt any/much hand typing was done at St. Louis. I have seen some Cert labels with a hint of an extra line below the VIN number and some with characters to the left or right of the VIN that lead me to conclude that 69 to 71 labels may have been based on the Protect-O-Plate.
My conversations with one person who tried to produce the label indicates that the exact shade of blue is not so easy to create.
There is a demand for a good reproduction. I hope someone is willing to stand the potential legal problems and do the dead. The best reproduction I have seen is aleged to came from someone in the state of Oregon who is no longer making them because there was not enough demand to support paying the licensing fees to GM.
Terry
TerryComment
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Re: Certification Label Revisited
Joe is right in that I suggested that a font from the IBM selectric family would SIMULATE the car specific information. As has been said below I doubt any/much hand typing was done at St. Louis. I have seen some Cert labels with a hint of an extra line below the VIN number and some with characters to the left or right of the VIN that lead me to conclude that 69 to 71 labels may have been based on the Protect-O-Plate.
My conversations with one person who tried to produce the label indicates that the exact shade of blue is not so easy to create.
There is a demand for a good reproduction. I hope someone is willing to stand the potential legal problems and do the dead. The best reproduction I have seen is aleged to came from someone in the state of Oregon who is no longer making them because there was not enough demand to support paying the licensing fees to GM.
Terry
TerryComment
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