63 / 64 Roadster Frame Variances

[Tracy C.]

Can someone identify the differences between a 63 and a 64 convertible frame?

Mine has no depression in the front cross member to accommodate a big block balancer but the emergency brake mechanism is on the center cross member rather than the driver side outer frame rail. According to the JG this is typical of a 64 frame. Are there any other differences? Can someone email pictures?

My car is a very late 63. When were the changes incorporated and what kind of judging deduction might this cause if not correct? If I understand the judging reference manual correctly, a part deemed to be an incorrect configuration recieves a full deduct of both originality and condition points (in this case 60 points).

Also, are the parts available to convert a 64 to a 63 if I need to make this happen?

Thanks,
tc

[Mike M.]

Re: 63 / 64 Roadster Frame Variances

before going any further, check the left rear frame rail for the vin # stamped on the top just over the rear axle. i've never seen a late 63 frame with 64 emergency brake bracketry but who knows. the 63 vettes didn't have rubber cushions betwen the body and the frame's body mount brackets hence the brackets on a 63 will be about 3/4 inch higher on the frame where they are welded on the frame.64 thru 67 vets had rubber cushions. good luck, mike

[Tracy C.]

Re: 63 / 64 Roadster Frame Variances

This is a replacement frame, but the weasle I bought it from a decade ago told me it was "Correct" for my late Vin 63. (there is a Vin # Stamped there but it obviously does match) It uses the rubber mounts in a couple of locations.

I thought I'd seek some adult supervision on the matter, henceforth my post. I didn't find much specific info in the archives.

tc

[mike cobine]

Re: 63 / 64 Roadster Frame Variances

He may be a weasel or he may just be the typical Corvette "expert" who knows that frames group sort of like this:

1963-1967 (the bodies all look alike, the frames must be too)
1968 (usually not sure why)
1969-1973 (because of the diagonal bracing)
1974-1982 (They all had the rubber bumpers on back)

Or he may be one that knows it is correct because it is functionally correct without welding or cutting, like you'd have to do with a late '68 up.

Water under the bridge. If the frame is out, then welding the tab for the '63 brake shouldn't be that hard and use the '63 hardware. Moving all the mounts might be a bit harder, or just use the soft mounts for a better ride.

What was the number stamped on the frame?

[Tracy C.]

Re: 63 / 64 Roadster Frame Variances

Mike C,

Thank you for your inquiry, but I had my prostrate checked at the time of purchase...and for the record, the number that was, still is on the frame. (insert one of those smiley faces here....how do you guys do that?)

Can someone help with my original questions reqarding frame configuration and effect on my judging score?

thanks,
tc

[mike cobine]

No one is stealing your VIN

I asked for the number on the frame because it would have indicated what year and how late into production. That would tell a lot.

The first number is the year, the rest is the serial number sequence. Not all changed during the year, but some did. Right now your frame is an unknown to us and no one can tell you how far off it is from original unless they know what it is.

For all we know it could be a '63 or an '82, a '68 or a '73. People have used almost any combination.

[Tracy C.]

I'm struggling with your logic.....

What if the vin was from a 79 1/2 Cadillac? (need another smiley face here)

I'm pretty dadburn sure this is a 64 frame as stated on my bill of sale. I don't have the number handy and it isn't something I can retrieve easily.

However, my point is... the mere appearance of a number on the frame isn't going to hold any water. If the frame possesses features not deemed to "appear as original" by the judging team, is the resultant score a full deduct for this component?

thanks,
tc

[Jack H.]

Re: I'm struggling with your logic.....

The judging process is pretty straight-forward. Absent any point deduction guidance (state either in the Judging Guide book or in the standard deductions section of the NCRS Judging Reference Manual--two books that ought to be in your support library), the deduction process is simple.

Judges divide the originality points available (dictated by the Flight Score Sheet) into a 5-axis universe and allocate 20% of the available originality points to each axis (Finish, Date, Installation, Configuration, and Completeness). Then, to the extent the observed component deviates from typical, known factory original components used; 20% of the originality points are shed for each axis where judges are able to detect differences....

Example: if the only difference between the frame on your car and that of a correct factory original lies in some subtile, yet visible, construction aspect (e.g. a reinforcing gusset, Etc.), then you'd expect to lose 20% of the available originality points based on a 'Configuration' difference. If your frame was obviously powder coated vs. painted, that'd be a violation of the 'Finish' axis and you surrender another 20% of the available originality points. See how the process works?

[Tracy C.]

[Jack H.]

Re: I'm struggling with your logic.....

You're working the issue(s) logically as judges should do/will to. Technically speaking the 'JG' doesn't contain scoring points, it's the Flight Score Sheet (subject to change) that has the points set up as individual line items.

On cushions, yes you have 'extra' parts and that will affect the configuration axis or the installation axis of the originality universe (judge's call which to take the deduction on). The five points allocated are for ALL body mounting points, shims, marks and cushions. So, add up the total count of items included in the overall 5-point line item and interpolate as to how many of the individual assy's deviate from known factory original '63 production norms due to the presence of cushions where they shouldn't be. Now, deduct 20% of those available points for deviation from configuration/installation and round to the nearest point (can't deduct fractional points). By doing this exercise enough you'll come to the quick conclusion that the law of large numbers applies and you typically wind up with a '1-point' deduction for most minor deviation situations....

Can't see your parking brake, but there's probably no argument here on your deduction assessment. That's unless it's TOTALLY INCORRECT (e.g. a complete Rube Goldberg substitute) in which case a full deduction would apply (loss of all originality points and the condition points associated with that line item).

On frame & numbers, the two judges working the car have to ponder the relative importance of combined items. The frame is HUGE and the numbers stenciled are small/minor. Most would find something like a 14/1 or 13/2 allocation appropriate for frame/stencil allocation.

On the last issue (are there other items unique to a 63 vs. 64 frame that judges could use to distinguish and deduct?), probably so but I'm not a '63 chassis expert to advise you. But, from the above thought line thread, you can see it'll be an Act of Congress for the sum deductions to amount to much more than a point or two (law of large numbers, preponderance of total assy).

You should really attend an NCRS judging meet, volunteer as an Observer Judge to see how the scoring process works. Once you gain some familiarity with the logic and flow of things, you come to realize a given deviation has to really be out in left field (item completely missing, grafted on from a Ford, Etc.) for the overall deduction to be dramatic.

But, there are a NUMBER of line items in the Flight process and you'll also be surprised at how quickly a point here, two points there adds to 45 (45/4500 = 1%). You'll also get a feel for where to spend your money/time for the best economic payback.

Yep, the WRONG paint/color deduction is biggie. And, hey, that Chevy 350 block were we ought to see an '870 cast in Saginaw 327 engine is also a big gulp....

From an economic standpoint, try this logic. ASSUME your car fully restored in 100% factory concours condition would be worth, say, $45K. Then, $45K/4500 judging points means the AVERAGE you should expect to fork out is $10/judging point (less if you want to make a restoration 'profit').

Now, you come to grips with the reality of our sport/hobby and the pride in restoration factor comes to play. Is it really worth it to pay $400 for that one-year only '63 master cylinder with its thumbscrew lid? The points are 12 originality + 8 condition and you'll get the lion's share of the line item for a generic GM service replacement being present....

Now, you have to go into the bathroom, dismiss your wife, close the door, look in the mirror, call a 'board' meeting and wrestle the question of how much money is your pride in restoration really worth???? We've all been there...WELCOME to the club!!!!

[Tracy C.]

God Bless America!! ...Land of NCRS !!

Exactly what I was looking for Jack !!

I really do plan to become more educated by attending/participating when opportunity presents itself. I'm near Wichita KS and I think KC and OKC have local chapters. I need to look into this more.

Once again, I appreciate your time to explain the process.

tc

[Verle R.]

Re: God Bless America!! ...Land of NCRS !!

Tracy,

Kansas City and Oklahoma have chapters. The Oklahoma Chapter is "located" in Tulsa.

Join the Oklahoma Chapter and come to some of our meetings.
Meet the people, attend judging classes, look at and talk about cars.
A good education and good people.

Verle

[Todd H 26112]

All-Or-None logic?

"Example: if the only difference between the frame on your car and that of a correct factory original lies in some subtile, yet visible, construction aspect (e.g. a reinforcing gusset, Etc.), then you'd expect to lose 20% of the available originality points based on a 'Configuration' difference. If your frame was obviously powder coated vs. painted, that'd be a violation of the 'Finish' axis and you surrender another 20% of the available originality points. See how the process works?"

Not quite.

This example suggests it's a non-analogous all-or-none universe of the 5 equally distributed axis. You've taken a 'full' Finish 20% off for a completely wrong finish (obvious power coat). And you've taken a 'full' Config 20% off for a self-admitted 'subtlety' in configuration.

Is it All-or-none???

With this apparent all or none approach to each of the 5 axis of your universe - is there any incentive at this point for a 'restorer' not to hack the frame config up any way desired since the full 20% config points are already tossed out for a minor/subtle variance?