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Re: 66 upper c/ arm mount bolts holes stripped ??
Geoffrey, your answer sounds right to me. Once those bolts are torqued up, it will make no difference if holes are only SLIGHTLY oversized.
If he continues to mess with it, he may create a worse situation both from the originality and safety perspectives. Tell him that for future reference, the solution is not always a bigger wrench. -
Re: 66 upper c/ arm mount bolts holes stripped ??
Geoffrey-----
I agree with your response, too. I believe that the "splined" bolts are pretty much there for assembly line AND service procedure (i.e. alignment shop) convenience. It's not critical otherwise from a functional perspective, at all, that the splines be tight in the frame bracket. However, if one wanted to "tighten them up" a bit, I'd wrap the splined end of an undamaged bolt with a piece of thin brass shim stock---whatever thickness it takes to get a tight fit. Then, drive the bolt in the frame bracket hole or draw it through using a nut. The soft brass shim stock will conform and lock the bolt in tightly.In Appreciation of John HinckleyComment
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Re: 66 upper c/ arm mount bolts holes stripped ??
Darn Joe, your solution is so simple it makes the rest of us look like ... well dopes!Comment
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Re: 66 upper c/ arm mount bolts holes stripped ??
Well, gee, Geoffrey, if I had known you REALLY wanted new ideas...
Frankly, Joe, I think that shim stock idea is going to be like trying to poke a burrito through a knot hole. After a couple hours of trys, with that thin shim stock rolling up and clumping up in and around that only SLIGHTLY oversized hole, I think Geoffrey's client will know the meaning of exasperation. And, even if you get the bolts in place relatively straight, you are still left with cleaning up the shim stock that gets left on the outside of the hole.
If it were me, I would get some of that two part epoxy paste (J-B Weld?), glue them suckers in place, torque the bolts, and forget about it.Comment
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Re: 66 upper c/ arm mount bolts holes stripped ??
Chuck-----
I never said that it would be completely easy. But, with a little care and patience it can be done. I've done it, myself, although not for this particular application. Some of the shim material may get stripped away. However, you only need a small portion of it to "survive" to get the interference fit. The trick is to "feed" the lower edge of the shim stock into the hole before the serrated portion of the shank goes through. Once that's through, you're "home free".
The JB Weld might work, too. However, it's more "permanent". Also, using it you'd be relying on the strength of the JB Weld, alone, to prevent rotation of the bolt. I'm not sure that it would be strong enough in this sort of application when torque is applied to the fastner. If a prevailing torque lock nut is used on the stud, I think that the torque required to run the nut down would break the JB Weld. It might hold, though.In Appreciation of John HinckleyComment
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Re: 66 upper c/ arm mount bolts holes stripped ??
If there is enough clearance to get in there, take a sharp center punch and punch a ring of dots just outside the edge of the hole. In this way, one may be able to upset enough material inward to lock on to the serrations. ...but you have to be able to get in there to do it somehow & don't know if there is room in this case. -kComment
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Been there, done that.....
...except THIS TIME it was broken BEFORE I messed with it. There are two simple ways around this problem. The easiest is to get bolts for a C3 car, which has larger diameter splines and will tighten right up, but the threads are coarse, and might be noticed if someone is looking really closely. The other way is with brass tubing, which is much easier to work with than shim stock. The trick is to find very thin brass tubing (I got some at Ace Hardware for about a buck) that has an inner diameter about the same as the OD of the bolt. Cut off about an 1/8 inch wide ring (Dremel or hacksaw) and slip the ring over the bolt, just up to the splines. Then install the bolt, holding the head with an open end wrench. It will pull the ring into the opening and the splines inside... tightens right up! I fixed three of my 67 bolts this way.Comment
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Re: Been there, done that.....
Thanks guys for all the advice. I am the dummy that was the cause of this exercise. I went the J-B Weld route tonite. Three of the bolts would still fit tight enough on their own but I used some J-B on them just incase. The fourth one wasn't even close to holding on its own so we used the J-B Weld on it and held it socket and tightened it up. Hopefully, it will hold. If it doesn't hold I'll try the brass route and if that fails the C3 route will be my last gasp. The replacement bolts that I got from Dr. Rebuild are course threads so it wouldn't be that noticeable by going the C3 route. I am not restoring this car to be judged, it will be my daily driver so the thread type is not that critical to me.Comment
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Re: Been there, done that.....
Rodney, you shouldn't feel like a dummy...many of us have made, and will continue to make, exactly that same mistake. What saved me was that my frame was in really good shape with no rust, and I hestitated for thought before reaching for the longest cheater pipe I could find.
In that moment of clarity, I concluded that the metal in the frame COULD be threaded, but that good manufacturing practice would not allow it. There could only be about two threads in the entire thickness; not enough for a good stable thread. Threaded holes are typically at least 1-1.5 times the bolt diameter in depth.
I then realized that the bolts were simply driven into the steel for a tight interference fit. I found the splines after I tentatively drove one of the bolts out.Comment
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Re: Good post, but ...
Gents,
I enjoyed reading your solutions to this problem.
Are we talking about the bolts that hold the front control arms to the frame? If so, how can this problem be avoided during disassembly? Can the heads be held in such a way that the splines are not stripped?
Thanks for your comments and input.
GeneComment
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Re: Good post, but ...
Gene, you are correct. We are talking about the 2 bolts going through the frame that hold the upper control arm. You are supposed to knock them out with a hammer. In my case, instead of removing the alternator, A/C compressor, fan and shroud so that I could get to them; I put a socket and pull bar to it and turned them which ruined the serations on the bolts and slightly enlarged one of the 4 holes.
RodneyComment
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Re: Good post, but ...
Gene, I would say that removing the bolts is not essential to the restoration process. The frame can be restored with the bolts in place by masking. Only if you demand the absolute correct finish on the bolts (black phosphate rather than spray blackening) or if the bolts are damaged enough to be replaced need they be removed.
If you feel the bolts must be removed, they can be driven out by hammering on the threaded end (thread on an expendable nut) using moderate judicious blows. Application of a penetrating oil or WD-40 before you start would be a good idea. When the time for re-installation comes, install by first LINING UP THE SPLINES in the bolt with those in the frame hole, and tap the bolts into position. Since splines were cut when the bolts were originally installed, they should go back in with a fraction of the force originally required. HINT: DON"T CUT NEW SPLINES IN THE FRAME HOLE.
It is no small feat to strip the spline fit in the holes if the frame is in good condition. It is probably good practice to use the bolt heads to torque the bolts, but I doubt that it happens during routine alignments with no apparent ill effects.Comment
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Re: My real question
Gents,
Thank you for your response to my post.
The real question that I was trying to answer: Is there a danger of stripping out the splined bolts when loosening the 11/16" nuts that secure the upper control arm to the frame mount? If this is a possibility, how do I avoid?
Thanks,
GeneComment
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Re: My real question
Gene, from my previous post..."It is no small feat to strip the spline fit in the holes if the frame is in good condition."
It's doubtful you will strip the holes in the frame by simply loosening the nuts...BUT, it will depend on the condition of the frame holes, if corrosion is present on the bolt threads, the amount of torque last applied to the nuts, etc.
From my 70 AIM, the specified torque on those nuts is only 40-55 ft-lbs. You can figure a young, strong guy with an 18" breaker bar can probably generate 150 ft-lb or more of torque; the torque normally needed to loosen those nuts is not even in the ball park of what it takes to strip the holes in good condition.
If the threads are rusty or dry, cleaning the threads and applying penetrating oil should probably be done before attempting to loosen the nuts. If the threads have a lot of corrosion, you could try chasing as much thread length as possible with a properly sized thread die.
If the nuts haven't moved after applying about 40-50 lbs of force to an 18" breaker bar (about 60-75 ft-lb), it's probably time to reassess the plan, and figure out what to do next. It may require a helper (probably not your wife) to hold the head of the bolt stationary with another breaker bar.Comment
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