66 up grade or not

[Joe T.]

i have a 66 327/300hp roadster, 4 speed, no power brakes no power steering, its getting cold in new england and i'm getting depressed about winter coming, i'm thinking of selling my car and trying to find a C2 350 hp with power brakes and power stearing, has anyone owned both a base 300hp no power brakes or steering and a 350hp power brake and steering car, are the differences dramatic and would they make the car that much more fun to drive? how much extra would i expect to pay for these added options in a" driver", at least thinking about the corvette makes the onslaught of winter a little easier to swallow

[Harry Sadlock]

Re: 66 up grade or not

If you have owned the 66 for a long period of time, you know the good, the bad and the ugly about the car. The 350hp will give a better kick but...Cost.

why not consider, just adding the P/S and the P/B to your 66. I do believe it will cost much less than the selling/repurchase process to change C2's.

Harry

[Joe L.]

Re: 66 up grade or not

Joe-----

If you have a good 1966 now, I wouldn't sell it for the reasons that you're considering.

First off, you can add power steering very easily. It's a VERY worthwhile addition. Without a build sheet or window sticker and installed correctly, no one will ever know if it was originally installed, or not. You can always return the car to its original manual steering configuration if you want to. But, you likely won't want to.

Power brakes don't really add a lot; I don't think it's worth the effort or expense to upgrade to power brakes. I doubt that you'll notice very much difference in braking effort or performance.

A 300 hp 327 is a great, all-around performing engine. It's likely the best of the 327s for all-around street driving. If you want to upgrade performance, simply install an L-79 camshaft or aftermarket hydraulic roller. You'll get just about equivalent performance.

[mike cobine]

Re: 66 up grade or not

I've driven low horse C2s and 350 hp C3s, but no 350 hp C2s. Basically, there is more kick with the 350 horse.

Power steering becomes much easier to drive and is important if you are a 90 lb weakling or you do a lot of city / parking lot driving. If you are simply out on the open road, you can get the same response by moving the tie rod ends to the forward hole for the faster steering ratio, however, it will make the parallel parking exercise rougher.

I've always thought the difference between power disc brakes and standard was how fast your teeth flew out of your mouth. Of course, I think that is impression only, because they both stop quickly and can lock the brakes if you want (which doesn't stop you faster).

For you, if your car is all original, a car that survived, or one that you have had judged or are still having judged, then changing it is something you don't want to do. Keep it original. Sell it, buy the 350 hp, or buy a non-original that doesn't matter if you modify, and build the 350 hp, add PS and PB, and have fun.

If you want to show and have the new car judged, then you have to buy a 350 hp car.

If your car is non-original, and you never plan to show it or have it judged, then you could just add the 350 hp (or the L82 cam), add PS and PB, and have what you want.

If you want to make it more fun to drive, the fastest and cheapest way is to pull the stock mufflers, buy a pair of cheap glass packs, and let the pipes rumble as you cruise through the back roads. Even though you are no faster, it will "sound" faster and you'll get a smile. If it weren't true, why would so many pay such big bucks for sidepipes?

I think the one I had the most fun driving was a '63 convertible, 283 +.040, mid 60s aluminum intake, Holley, 461 heads, 4 sp, and 3.70 rear. It was just a fun car to drive. The top was usually down. I never worried if it would break or if anyone would bother it. I drove it -- all the time.

If you are despondent about winter coming, I don't think it is the car. I think it is you have lost the fun of driving. Before the snow hits, take you Corvette, and take a long weekend somewhere. Put 400 miles on it. Ride through the mountains. Do what it was built to do. And do as much as possible top down.

[Joe T.]

Re: 66 up grade or not

could a novice install the power steering and where would i get one that is correct for a 66, the car is a good running engine number matching car with a correct 66 transmission, a 64 rear end, correct color etc. car,the paint is poor, that's part of what's depressing as i've been getting estimates on a redo,

[Joe T.]

Re: 66 up grade or not

thanks, i drive it all the time, took it out yesterday and turned some heads, maybe i should sell my 41 chevy and put a coupe in the garage next to the roadster, that would make me feel better

[mike cobine]

Re: 66 up grade or not

Back when I drove a '67 BB coupe daily for commuting, it became old. The '63 was driven a lot, but not daily. It was fresh almost every time.

If you aren't having fun, put it away. Park it out back, drop it off at the parents garage, find a storage place, and park it for 4 months.

When you go look at it and take it out in 4 months, it will be like the first time all over.

Now the paint issue you mentioned, there isn't much of a way around it. If you sell to buy another, the bad paint will kill your selling price. So you have only a few choices: live with the old paint, get with some friends and paint it, or take it to a good paint shop and pay the big bucks.

The PS is the same one '63 up as far as function. Lots of them out there, just check ebay or watch the classifieds. Afternoon job to install if you have a firend to help.

Good luck.

[Todd H 26112]

Re: 66 up grade or not

I've heard this said before - that the PB don't make that much of a difference over standard brakes. I've gone thru my brakes a while back and the one thing that made teh biggest difference was fresh hoses. If you have newish hoses and good fresh fluid and decent rotors, pads, calipers - I think they work pretty good.

I've tire kicked at the idea of slapping on PB as well - but I usually here it's just not that much of a night and day difference. Why is that?

At any rate I'm shying away from the PB upgrade - the std brakes have grown on my and I feel less isolated w/ them. I autocross (other cars for now) now and then and just like that tactile feedback in some ways. Or maybe I'm just rationalizing sticking w/ std brakes...

At any rate - how come the difference in pedal effort doesn't seem more night and day w/ PB vs std as one might expect?

Oh BTW mine is a 4 speed base SB. More reasons not to worry about PB I figure...

[Joe L.]

Re: 66 up grade or not

Joe-----

It depends upon how much of a "novice" that one is. It's really not that difficult to install, though, and if one has "reasonable" mechanical skills, one should be able to do it. Kits are available from most of the vendors like Dr. Rebuild, Paragon, etc. which include most all of the components that you need.

Getting a Corvette painted can be an expensive proposition. If your car needs paint, you'll take quite a "hit" on a sale since most prospective owners will know what a paint job costs, too. Similarly, if you buy a car with a fresh paint job, you'll pay a premium price. So, there's really no way that you're going to come out better by selling your car and buying another.

[Gary S.]

Re: 66 up grade or not

Let me jump in here for my two cents worth. Others have given you good advice and I would certainly listen well.

I had a 66 L79 without PS or PB. This was a lot of fun to drive and even easier to work on since there weren't any power accessories in the way. The ONLY time that I didn't like this combination was in parallel parking. Quite honesly, I just avoided that area altogether. A friend has a 300 hp 65 that I have driven and really didn't notice the difference. Then again, I enjoy driving my car, not for the neck snapping acceleration, but for the fun, the look, the feel, and the sound of the car. I always do at least one full throttle acceleration in my Corvette when I have it out. Just because.

I never considered adding PS or PB even though I had a complete PS setup that I picked up for a song. This was every component, bracket, nut and bolt. I kept this PS setup around four about five years and finally sold it.

My current car is a 72 LT1 with PS and PB. Quite honestly, I don't need or want them and I am really ambivalent about them. I would think a low option LT1 would be even more fun to drive without them but, of course, I am not pulling them off.

If you have a fun car, a reliable car, and a car that you still enjoy driving, why switch to an unknown car. Your call but it sounds like you may be chasing after something that really isn't there.

Gary

[Joe T.]

Re: 66 up grade or not

thank you all, i think i'll keep the car, try to find a friend with one woth the options and see if its worth changing or adding, i'm much less eager to do this now after all your input, as far as the paint i will start saving and have a good shop do it, its a correct and fairly original car so will probably be worth it, joe

[mike cobine]

Why no more diff between PB and std

The reason there isn't much difference is simple once you understand all that happens.

Maximum braking (not to be confused with maximum stopping) occurs when the wheels lock. When a wheel locks, you cannot increase braking anymore. Since both the standard and the power brakes in a Corvette can lock the wheels, neither has an advantage. With most street speeds and street tires, this is true. This can change with larger tires, different tires (slicks), and much higher speeds.

However, the booster allows you to generate more force to the brakes, which in reality in a Corvette simply means you reach that maximum braking sooner. To explain, if it takes 100 lbs of force at the pedal to lock the wheels with standard brakes at a given speed, it may only take 50 lbs with power brakes. As such, your leg will hit 50 lbs of force before it will hit 100 lbs and thus the power brakes lock faster. This is why you feel like the power brakes will yank your eyeballs out. It is why after driving with manual brakes, you keep launching your passengers when suddenly jumping in a power brake car.

( Note -- Numbers are illustrations only and are not representative of real figures.)

In reality and in practical situations, this difference may be in the thousands of a second, so except in extreme situations like autocrossing or road racing, you will never notice it in performance. Also at extreme speeds, it takes more force to generate maximum braking. This is why PB boosters were installed on the racing packages. (Although in a lot of racing, you are generating so much adrenaline you can practically bend a brake pedal.)

To clear up the difference of maximum braking and maximum stopping, once a tire locks, the rubber melts from friction, and is actually a lubricant or will physically tear loose and create balls of rubber for the tire to roll on (depending on tread compounds), so the tire slows more (has more friction) before the tire locks than after the tire locks. So maximum stopping occurs before you reach maximum braking.

This is why ABS stops shorter than most people in a panic stop.

Now in large heavy vehicles like trucks, it is possible that you can't exert enough force with standard brakes to lock the wheels at a given speed at which the PB booster may exert enough and so the PB are braking better than standard. But that is a heavy vehicle or one with small (bordering inadequate) brakes. The Corvette is not such a vehicle.

While cars like Novas, Chevelles, and Camaros had the 9 inch brakes, the Corvette ran the same 11 inch brakes that was on the full size Chevies when drums and continued with large rotors when disc brakes.

That is a lot of brake for a small car.

[Todd H 26112]

more on PB vs Std Brakes

Wow!

So are you saying that the radial swept area in a '65-'82 is sufficient in ratio to overall vehicle weight to mitigate the benefits of pedal exertion w/ PB? That's the way I always sorta figured it.

Really I was just talking about pedal pressure w/ respect to PB from ordinary driving up to a maximum performance requirement of an occasional autocross which rarely exceeds a minute or so and I appologize I should have been clearer. Beyond pedal effort (and in road racing or enduros that can be important) - I wouldn't think there'd be any noticeable raw performance increase to be had w/ PB. In a panic stop I would think a Corvette equipped either way could post comparable numbers albeit the driver gets a bit more of a workout w/ one over the other
I've driven heavier vehicles w/o the benefit of PB and it was pretty noticeable - E.g. you missed it and wished you had it - just like in your example. I've driven extremely light vehicles also w/o the benefit of PB and they usually were pretty good. TO me the average C2/C3 isn't all that light. But (at least in my opinion) the pedal effort for std brakes in a disk brake equipped C2/C3 - just isnt' really all that bad. The std brakes always struck me as great for normal driving and in extreme duty - borderline purely for the pedal effort if it had to be repeated over and over. This presumes a brake setup in good state.

---

Just a thought but a few other things that 'might' also contribute to good solid brake performance in non-PB trim might include the multi-piston caliper? And what about suspension geometry? If enough things are done right and enough consideration is given the weight and intended or potential usage of the car - the PB pedal effort benefit can be lessened I figure

---

In my particular case, my early C3 has a 4 speed. In normal daily driving I would think that too might take some load off the need for PB compared to say an auto. E.g. you let off the gas and the engine tends to 'pull' you down somewhat as you puttering around town. In an auto you are depending a bit more on brakes and having to 'hold' it at lights and such. PB become more of a convenience here perhaps. My guess is that most automatic equipped vettes more than likely got the PB option - can you verify?

But w/ 4 speed equipped Corvettes - I have no idea how common PBs were. At that point prevailing presence of PB might have as much to do w/ other convenience/luxury 'packaging'? E.g. a 4 speed car w/ luxury interior, AC and/or PS - might more likely get the PB treatment as well?

Just curious what the 'trends' might have been or what 'logic' may have been popularly at work back in the day w/ PB option selection...

Thanks!

[Duke W.]

Re: more on PB vs Std Brakes

One of the design requirements as outlined by Duntov et. al in a 1965 SAE paper on the disk brake system was to not need a booster as part of the base disk brake package. This was stated in the form of a metric that required mechanical and hydraulic ratios and a pad coefficient of friction that would allow a 1g stop with 120 pounds of pedal force. Of course, the OE tires of the era were probably only capable of about 0.9g on a sticky surface.

The paper did not give the pedal effort for an equivalent stop with booster, but it probably would be about half or a bit less.

These were probably reasonable numbers in that era. The trouble is that virtually all cars built in the last 20-25 years have had power brakes and few require more than 50-60 pounds of pedal force to lock the wheels or activate the ABS if so equipped.

We are so accustomed to power brakes and moderate pedal effort that when we get into a vintage car without power brakes, it can feel like it doesn't have any brakes.

Duke

[Harmon C.]

Re: I agree

Joe I have both manual and P/S 73's and their is a big difference in steering wheel effort in tight slow turns( driveway shifting around of Corvettes). As for power brakes their is little difference in effort and the results are effected more by the condition of the system. Lyle