Novice Class Judging

[Joe R.]

Members,

Just read the posts on the Councours below and just had to ask this question. Would it be a good idea to have a Novice Class so that NCRS members NEW and OLD could have their cars judged in a helpful and friendly setting? The idea of the Novice Class is to help newer members and people in the NCRS who have never shown their cars before.

Hopefully this would help prepare owners and cars for later flight judging. It would also keep members from being "Turned Off" by judging teams slam dunking their prized possession.

A proposal similar to this was presented to our Judging Chairman, Roy Sinor several months ago.

What are your feelings about this subject?

JR

[Chuck S.]

Re: Novice Class Judging

Which are the novices, J?...the judges or the owners? Or, both?

Judges are admonished in their meetings and instructions against being politically incorrect in their comments to owners about judged cars...by and large, it seems to work, but I can't say if it takes on all the judges.

[Joe R.]

Re: Novice Class Judging

Good Question but in this case I feel that the judges should be selected on the basis of their interest in helping newer members with their cars. Novice judges could be included as observers like flight judging. This would certainly be a huge task to impliment because of the relatively small number of qualified and willing judges available at every meet.

The question is: Do you feel that this effort would be worthwhile and serve it's intended purpose? The purpose being helping novice owners break into flight judging.

Thanks for your time,

JR

[Don H.]

Re: Novice Class Judging

I believe you are descibing a "Chapter Meet." There are three levels of judging: chapter, regional, and national. Each step is considered a higher level of expertise. From the practical stand point, we have many things to track now without adding more. Don H.

[Joe R.]

Re: Novice Class Judging

Don,

No, I don't believe I was describing a Chapter Meet. By the way. What distinguishes the difference in the levels you described. Are the judging sheets different, are the judging manuals different, are the team leaders different and are the judges different? Aren't the same level of awards passed out? Aren't the ribbons the same color?

I'm sort of a novice at this judging I guess, since I've only been a member since 1976 and have only a few blue ribbons and only one pink.

Could you suggest something that would keep new members from stomping from the judging fields saying they would never have a car judged again by the NCRS?

Me and about 30,000 others members are listening for suggestions.

Thanks,

JR

[Chuck S.]

Re: Novice Class Judging

JR, my opinion is probably not worth do-dah when it comes to judging, but it's hard for me to see how a "novice class" would be worthwhile.

No doubt there are judging personalities that more positive and thorough in their explanation when it comes to telling owners that their cars are not as they came from St. Louis (or Bowling Green, now), but the standard is still the standard. It seems like there might be an inclination to relax those standards so novice members could feel good about their cars. Unfortunately, they will eventually have to graduate to the "real judging world". There could be no "Flight Awards" for such judging, but completed judging sheets in this "pre-judging class" would probably be helpful to the owners.

Ideally, members would spend a little time as observer judges and judges, or maybe even as members, before they bring a car for judging. It would help members to understand that judging is almost never arbitrary; it is not easy, it takes time, but judges volunteer for it because they enjoy helping members achieve the NCRS standard. It is also clear from the thread below that many members either don't agree with the objectives of NCRS, or they don't understand them.

The fact of the matter is that ALL judges should be selected for their knowledge of the cars, AND their attitude toward helping members with their cars. The judges and judging teams that I have been involved with made the effort to make owners feel good about the judging results and make comments that were constructive. In fact, at the regional level, I have sometimes been concerned that the standards were being deliberately relaxed too much to insure that everyone had fun. In my opinion, if you go over a car in a cursory manner and overlook a lot of details that will be caught at the next level, you are just building the owner up to get knocked down later.

I can remember no case where an owner felt that his car's judging was unfair or harsh; I think there was one case where the owner restored the car to the TIM&JG only to have a judge deduct points in accordance with knowledge that deviated from the TIM&JG. In that case, the owner appealed the deduction to the Team Leader as I would have; if the TIM&JG says it, latitude should be given to the owner in my opinion.

[Don H.]

Re: Novice Class Judging

My point is that "in theory" you will have more experienced judges at each level up. They all use the same sheets and manuals, but the knowledge increases at each step up. Of course this is not always the case. If a Chapter has an abundance of Master Level Judges,it will have a "higher standard" than a Chapter with willing but not experienced judges. Everyone gives their best but experience means alot. Unfortunately there is always going to be the unhappy owner. What means more, a Chapter or National Top Flight? That will always be open for debate. If you compare us to any other national organization, I think we do a fantastic job of giving a fair evaluation of a Corvette. We are not perfect, but who is. Don H.

[Todd H 26112]

You really want more than 2% involved?

What you are suggesting is somewhat vague but intriguing. But nonetheless I bet it went over with all the grace of a lead balloon.

A tiny minority of NCRS members get involved in current judging as it exists today. And if anyone doesn't know why - ain't no way I can explain it here. How come NCRS never sends out surveys with questions vocal folks label as non-issues. If these are such "non-issues" - why are there so many responses to that affect?

For starters in this type of diluted judging I'd say THROW OUT THE NUMBERS!
Yes you heard me right. That alone elimates teh 'money' game so dear and precious to a small minority of judging involved members. I don't care WHAT number or date code is stamped, cast, scrawled or invisible inked on the engine, tranmission, air conditioner, etc etc etc. Essentially (theoretically) take masking tape and cover up those stupid numbers everwhere - and NOW judge the dang car! Judge it on merits like configuration and such. Yeah I know the current system takes both into account but I've seen too many judges see a shiny part, note the correct numbers and slam bam here's teh points, next. This utterly eliminates the money game and now is inclusive of the 1000s of sane people that are not going to spend these REDICULOUS sums of money on cheap mass produced parts that vary largely by numbers and otherwise abound in junkyards. Now if there are differences it's up to the owner/restorer to properly configure it to appear and function like the original item should. And it's up to the judge to verify the configuration and function not the numbers.
YOu know what I'm suggesting? I'm suggesting judging a restored car, not necessariyl an original. And NOT penalizing simply because it's NOT original. Those numbers are a money game to acquire and that can be a real turn off to many a sane person.

Oh and REQUIRE a mileage credit - say 4 miles minimum. The more the better.

GIve a free pass to items for safe driving on the road. Not just brake hoses - get real. I'm talking tires, retrofitted 3 pt or better seatbelt harnesses. Modern headlights too. Also get real liberal on GM service replacement items especially standard tuneup and wear/replacement/service items.

Finally loosen up a tad on 'over restorations' - just loosen up is all. Look, there are thousandss of skilled craftsman and artisans in the Car & Corvette community including MANY in NCRS who take pride in there work and simply will NOT deliberately submit themselves to doing crappy work just because the factory did it - all in the name of some ribbon and a certificate.

By the same token these folks enjoy working on their cars and restoring them and fully appreciate originality as legitimate and realistic standard. These folks would probably thrive on judging their work against a realistic standard.

Oh and I would suggest nixing the 'novice' name - I'm thinking in terms of many people currently uninvolved in NCRS who are in fact quite skilled at the work they do - not at throwing money at dilemmas but doing quality work - somehow I don't think such skill and experience is going to be attacted to being called 'novices' - different from 'flight' sure - just not necessarily novice. Let's not belittle or demean just differentiate if we must.

I figure judging man hour efforts could be dropped by at least 30% and I also think fees should reflect this (you did say you wanted to attract more involvement right?)

Finally remember the adage - be careful what you ask for. While this is intriguing to consider - I wouldn't be so sure NCRS decision makers want or can really handle judging participation beyond the meager % it's currently at. What would happen if judged cars were to double within 2 to 3 years? Think about it. I get the feeling you are presuming that expanded participation in judging (not those other 'programs' but judging) is what is desired - I'm not so sure.

But allow me to say this is a very laudable goal and I'm already refreshed to hear about this from someone. There is a silent majority out there in the membership at large. THey appear to be satisfied to pay their dues in exchange for a fine quarterly publication. Could judging participation be expanded and made more inclusive? Absolutely. Is it realistic or desirable as a goal? I don't know.

Good luck

[Tom R.]

Re: Novice Class Judging

Sounds like drinking decaf coffee when what you really want is the robust, caffinated variety.

Or...do Sportsman...no juding whatsoever!

[Chuck G.]

Re: Novice Class Judging

I've been a member of NCRS for over 20 years. Maybe I'm unique, but I have always found that my cars were/are judged in a "friendly and helpful" setting. I've never been "slam dunked" with one of my cars, nor as a Master Level judge myself, have I EVER "slam dunked" somebody's car.

I've judged and been judged at Chapter, Regional and National events. I think that there is a misunderstanding among a lot of members, both new and old. That misunderstanding revolves around the erroneous premise that every aspect of every car has to be restored to 100% conformity to the Judging Manual.

If you want radial tires, use them...just buy an OEM brand and correct replacement size to "maximize" your point count. If you want an electronic ignition, by all means do it, but do it in a way as to hide the installation. I could go on and on, but I think you get my point.

The point deductions for many items are minimum. Using a 4500 total point system, with the final result divided by 45.....one can see that you can lose 270 points, and still get a Top Flight Award. SO...when one talks about taking a "one point hit" for this, and a "one point hit" for that, he's not talking about going from 100 to 99 to 98. Each "big point" is 45 "little points".

Our Chapter does hold a few "practice judging" sessions during the year. We're doing one this weekend. We'll have two or three cars ONLY. That way, we get a few cars out that haven't been judged, and get a number of our members out to BE judges, under the guidance of some of "us older folk". Maybe one of your local Chapters does the same thing. Chuck

[Chas Kingston]

Re: You really want more than 2% involved?

Tell 'em how you really feel, Todd

Geezer

[Dick C.]

Re: Novice Class Judging

The only addition to the Flight Judging awards I would like to see is NCRS add a "Flight Participation" award for those who have their cars judged at a chapter meet and do not get a flight award the first time out. At one of our chapter meets we had an owner who had his car judged did not get a flight award, it was the first time having his car judged. When giving out the flight awards at the end of the meet, this guy was not given any type of recognition for having he car judged. We have "sportsman" awards for those who drive and register for the event, we recognize judges and tabulators, so why not include the owners whose car don't get at least a 3rd flight. I have asked the new region 1 rep to bring this subject up at the next board meeting if not sooner.

Dick Capello

http://newenglandchapterncrs.homestead.com

[Michael W.]

Re: Novice Class Judging

excellent idea Dick, spoken like a true Vettehead.

We've had similar occurances here as I'm sure everyone has.

Mike(y)




Quebec Chapter

[Todd H 26112]

Re: You really want more than 2% involved?

Hey Geezer!

Nah! - If I did that I wouldn't be around much longer - pro'lly banned for life.

[Todd H 26112]

Re: Novice Class Judging

Are you aware that NCRS designates service replacement sizes itself in modern radials that tire makers themselves won't validate? Since NCRS standards maximize points for 215/70R-15 on 8" wheels I'd like to see NCRS produce a statement from a tire manufacturer that corroborates NCRS's own tire designation that a 215/70R-15 is appropriate to install on an 8" wide rim. Since you mentioned replacement radials - I couldnt' resist.

"The point deductions for many items are minimum..." Good point - people do need to stop and realize that a point is not a percent. But also keep in mind that use of oh, say a service replacement item can result in pretty agregious near complete deductions in many cases too. And that does add up.... 3rd flight, grounded flight...?

I think you make a very insightful statement about mis-understandings - to that end I think NCRS could probably work to do a better job of clearing up mis-conceptions and such floating around about flight judging and double standards as it exists today. And patient input from folks like yourself goes a long ways towards helping.

thanks,