I'll start with saying I have an old one. It has a card that says it is good through 12/88 and I got this in '89. It is the "Summer, '85 - First Edition, First Printing" and they sold this to me in the summer of '89. One interesting item is that the Concours Judging specifies the area is open to 1953-1967 Corvettes only (in the '68 & '69 guide).
At least my '63 & '64 manual was a bit newer, being the "Spring, 1988 - Second Edition, Third Printing" even though many pages say "Summer, '83". However, it agrees pretty much with the '68 & '69 guide.
So I'm sure a lot has been clarified in newer editions.
In 2.6.1 Engine Blocks, there are four categories for 100%, 75%, 50%, and 0% on the Originality Credit.
For 100%, it says:
"Correct casting number; casting date precedes approximate vehicle assemby date by no more than 6 months; engine plant stamping date follows casting date but precedes approximate vehicle assembly date by no more than 6 months; horsepower suffix correct; late 1960 and later Corvettes have last 5 digits of VIN stamped onto same pad."
I don't mean to pick on items like the "5 digits" which is not correct for '68 & '69 but rather what this says.
It says that the items must be stamped to get 100% originality points. It doesn't say they have to be original.
In 2.4 Reproduction or Remanufactured Parts, it says that any part made outside of General Motors control "(i.e., reproduction parts) shall not face a penalty on originality points".
Reading those two sections, it appears that if you restamp a block, then it is a reproduction, and is subject to NOT being penalized just because a judge knows it is a reproduction and not the original item manufactured by GM.
It appears from the four categories for Originality points that a reproduction block of the correct casting numbers and with the correct stamped information (Plant, assembly date, horsepower suffix, and partial VIN) should be subject to 100% of the Originality credit.
If the numbers are the wrong font, numbers are wrong size, the broaching is only 100 lines vs 1100 lines, and so on, this would fall into the CONDITION, not the ORIGINALITY since they are indeed present as stated in the requirements.
However, in this old issue, there are no condition points for the block so wrong fonts, sizes, and placement wouldn't count against you.
The Questions:
----------------
1. So has this changed, and there are now condition points on the block that the judges have been checking on the stamp pad?
2. Is there now a section on the stamp pad that isn't in these copies?
3. There is nothing in these old ones about broach marks which was not fully understood them, but is now. Is there a section on judging the broach marks now?
4. Or have people been judging something that is really outside the guidelines of the Judging Manual?
5. The use of visual enhancement has been discussed but from these old guides, that doesn't seem to be an issue. If the 10x or 20x scope shows the item is a reproduction, so what? Reproductions are allowed and do not stop the originality points. Has this not been the case?
6. Are we talking about the awards for restored cars or surviving original cars in these heated questions on broach marks, restamping, BC/CC, and so on?
-------------
It would be a non-issue to me except that there has been a LOT of discussion about stampings, engines, judging, and new standards in the last few days on this board. This could be cleared up if I had a new copy of the judging standards, but I don't, and not likely to get one in the next couple of days. So please don't simply say get a new manual. I'd like to know now and that is why I ask.
Thanks.
At least my '63 & '64 manual was a bit newer, being the "Spring, 1988 - Second Edition, Third Printing" even though many pages say "Summer, '83". However, it agrees pretty much with the '68 & '69 guide.
So I'm sure a lot has been clarified in newer editions.
In 2.6.1 Engine Blocks, there are four categories for 100%, 75%, 50%, and 0% on the Originality Credit.
For 100%, it says:
"Correct casting number; casting date precedes approximate vehicle assemby date by no more than 6 months; engine plant stamping date follows casting date but precedes approximate vehicle assembly date by no more than 6 months; horsepower suffix correct; late 1960 and later Corvettes have last 5 digits of VIN stamped onto same pad."
I don't mean to pick on items like the "5 digits" which is not correct for '68 & '69 but rather what this says.
It says that the items must be stamped to get 100% originality points. It doesn't say they have to be original.
In 2.4 Reproduction or Remanufactured Parts, it says that any part made outside of General Motors control "(i.e., reproduction parts) shall not face a penalty on originality points".
Reading those two sections, it appears that if you restamp a block, then it is a reproduction, and is subject to NOT being penalized just because a judge knows it is a reproduction and not the original item manufactured by GM.
It appears from the four categories for Originality points that a reproduction block of the correct casting numbers and with the correct stamped information (Plant, assembly date, horsepower suffix, and partial VIN) should be subject to 100% of the Originality credit.
If the numbers are the wrong font, numbers are wrong size, the broaching is only 100 lines vs 1100 lines, and so on, this would fall into the CONDITION, not the ORIGINALITY since they are indeed present as stated in the requirements.
However, in this old issue, there are no condition points for the block so wrong fonts, sizes, and placement wouldn't count against you.
The Questions:
----------------
1. So has this changed, and there are now condition points on the block that the judges have been checking on the stamp pad?
2. Is there now a section on the stamp pad that isn't in these copies?
3. There is nothing in these old ones about broach marks which was not fully understood them, but is now. Is there a section on judging the broach marks now?
4. Or have people been judging something that is really outside the guidelines of the Judging Manual?
5. The use of visual enhancement has been discussed but from these old guides, that doesn't seem to be an issue. If the 10x or 20x scope shows the item is a reproduction, so what? Reproductions are allowed and do not stop the originality points. Has this not been the case?
6. Are we talking about the awards for restored cars or surviving original cars in these heated questions on broach marks, restamping, BC/CC, and so on?
-------------
It would be a non-issue to me except that there has been a LOT of discussion about stampings, engines, judging, and new standards in the last few days on this board. This could be cleared up if I had a new copy of the judging standards, but I don't, and not likely to get one in the next couple of days. So please don't simply say get a new manual. I'd like to know now and that is why I ask.
Thanks.
Comment