Visual Aids For Judging

[Harmon C.]

Their have been many posts on this lately on this subject. This happened to me at the National convetion final Duntov judging in Bowling Green Kentucky. The judging was outside and the chassie judges could not see the date on my starter and took the deduction. Going over the sheets with me I said I know it is correct as I bought it from John P. I had seen the date when I installed it and knew it was correct and it had been judged ok at a regional so I got under the car to prove my point but I could not see it either so I accepted the deduction. Later John Woods came by with his new really brite light and took a look and said the date is ok I can see it easy. I used his light and could see the stamp easy even though it was a light stamp on a rare part. I just wanted to show a case when better judging tools would have gained me some points as an owner. I will allways think of John as having the best tools for judging. Lyle

[Michael W.]

Re: Visual Aids For Judging

Lyle,

I remember your car being judged at BG.

Would not the rule of giving the owner the benefit of doubt have been the appropriate thing to do? If the date code can be read and is deemed out of range, then a deduction is appropriate, but if it is purported to be there but CANNOT be read due to circumstances such as you describe, why should you take the same hit as an unacceptable date?

[Todd H 26112]

Missed those - But... Aides vs Enhancements?

Lyle I missed the "many posts on this lately" you saw.

I do however recall some posts about visual 'enhancements', to introduce a differentiating term, regarding magnification with devices that exceed the capabilities of the human eye (even in ideal situations). And I do recall previous examples of how it might or might not benefit the owners points-wise.

I also recall in the posts that 'aides' of the type you are referring to (from previous posts?) were specifically called out as NOT being the subject matter. But perhaps you read other posts? Aides not only include prescription or reading glasses, contacts or surgically corrected eyes but certainly include good flashlights and mirrors to name but a few. Such 'aides' compensate for less than idealic circumstances in a judging environment such as lighting, shadows, difficult viewing angles and so forth... Such devices do NOT exceed the capabilities of the human eye - certainly not in ideal circumstances that eliminate mitigating factors such as lighting or viewing angles or access.

Independent of the discussions you apparently read (and I suggest you read the posts I'm referring to - email me and perhaps I cand find the links for you) there was however some discussion about visual devices that magnified appearances well beyond the capabilities of the human eye (enhancements exceeding eyes). Specifically optical or digital magnifying devices were cited as examples and it was also noted that such could be used to BOTH the benefit and detriment of points for the owner. E.g. yes it's a knife that cuts both ways which is immaterial to the discussion anyway. This was in reference to the open ended question of interpretation whether or not their usage could become excessive given the judging standard as to visual "appearance".

The open ended question posed was: is it to the standard of the human eye 20/20 appearance (even if aided by mirrors, glasses or flashlights) or could it be to ANY level of appearance beit 10X, 20X mangification or whatever theoretical magnification one could achieve (within the open limits of technologies and what can be feasibly used in a judging environment logistically but notably in excess of human eye capabilities).

But for some reason nobody seemed to address 'that' question of interpretation. It's really quite simple - what is meant by "appearance"?

===

And before anyone slices and dices symantics of 'aid' vs 'enhancement' - it is presented here in the context of comparing a device or technology to that of they human eye at or correctable to 20/20 in ideal circumstances (e.g. no obstructions or lighting issues etc in the comparision. An example of an enhancement might be a microscope or digital camera. An example of a compensating aid might be a flashlight or mirror. I hope I have made the distinction clear as it is an important disctinction some may miss while pursuing tangents not directly relevant to the subject.

[Gene M.]

Re: Visual Aids For Judging

Lyle,
I hope you had a good experience on the judging field. I as a chassis judge will always when in doubt, or can not get at the spot to see a feature that should be judged will always assign points in favor of the car. Now if I can see where a feature (marking, date, P/N, etc) should be, but see none, or it's wrong then that is a deduction. Now in your case, possibly could the starter stamping have been in a not typical position on the starter case to cause the issue? I have run into "oddball" starters where the stamping is not in the typical location on the case. Thus it can be missed or seen clearly only when the starter is out of the car. In most cases evidence of a stamping can be witnessed with a small mirror and small lite. And most chassis judges have these, maybe not state of the art equiptment but generally good enough. I'm not intending to defend the judges but only presenting what possibly lead up the decision to make the deduction. I would suggest having photo's of hard to view pieces on your car for interested judges. I always find detailed photo of out of the normal parts interesting. After all this is supposed to be fun!

[Rick A.]

Re: Missed those - But... Aides vs Enhancements?

Todd,

Excellent recap of the prior discussion - wondering when anyone will actually get around to answering/replying to your original question/observation

FYI - I for one, have no problem with someone using a microscope, digital camera, et al as long as they are used consistently and at EVERY meet - for that is really what NCRS should be striving for CONSISTENCY in everything that we do to sustain this wonderful hobby we call CORVETTE

[Michael W.]

Hey Todd- can you settle a bet for us please

What do you do,(or did you do) for a living?

Thanks.

[Todd H 26112]

Hey Mike - why not stop personalizing?

...like the rest of the fan club and stick to the topics at hand that this forum is designated for?

[Patrick H.]

Re: Visual Aids For Judging

I'd agree. I think the 70-72 manual even addresses this for the starter. I'd tell you for sure but the manual is at home, and I'm not.

Patrick

[Jerry Clark]

"stick to the topics at hand "

Hey, this guy is definately "Hat material"
God forbid we personalize this hobby.
Next thing you will know everyone's name and forget thier number, obviously a fate worse than death.
Technical information only please,
Mikey; you must know better by now?
But now that you have asked, who the hell is Todd H 26112, (and what a strange last name, 26112?)
Mothers maiden name 54983 ? This is awful.

[Michael W.]

Thanks for the response,

and good advice that everyone (without exception) should follow.

Look like I won the bet.

[Todd H 26112]

"...that this forum is designated for" *NM*

[Harmon C.]

Re: Visual Aids For Judging

Mike The judges could not see the date stamp with their flashlights and when I rolled under to show them it was correct with my flashlight I could not see it either even thou it was in the correct spot and I knew right where to look. I could and would not expect a judge to give me the points just because I say it was their when I put it on. Judges must judge what they see and they took off the points as they should have. A briter light which I don't really know is a visual aid or not made the date readable but the judging was over and made no difference in the big picture.

[Harmon C.]

Re: Missed those - But... Aides vs Enhancements?

Could someone tell me if a high powered flashlight is a visual aid in ten words or less? Lyle

[Todd H 26112]

Re: Missed those - But... Aides vs Enhancements?

Below is a link to a thread you may find interesting. It discusses enhancements like magnification but I think it specifically excluded aides like your flashlight so I'm not sure it will be of much help to you. Still it might be worth a shot...

good luck,




Here's a thread you may find interesting

[Mike M.]

Re: Missed those - But... Aides vs Enhancements?

lyle: looks like you're gonna get more than 10 words. regards, mike p.s.: i consider a flashlite a flashlite.