Reply To Mr. Sinor

[Joe C.]

Could not post this as a reply, so I am posting this on the Forum as a new thread. I also sent you a cc of this, direct.

Roy:

Quote:

"Are you saying that an original engined vehicle should get no more credit than a restamped and/or altered horsepower vehicle? (the reason for the and/or is once stampped how do you know)"
" Do you feel that an original trim tagged vehicle should get no more credit than a reproduction tagged vehicle?"

I am loyal to the NCRS. Please, read my profile.....I sincerely mean every word of it. I am not in it for the money, just the principle.

We now have the technology, and know how, to detect a reproduction trim tag. We also have the technology to examine the broach marks of an engine stamp pad, count the lines per inch, and determine whether or not it is original.

To answer your questions:
NO-an original trim tagged vehicle should NOT be in the same judging class as a "correctly configured" reproduction. NO-a car with the original engine should NOT be in the same judging class as a car with a restoration engine block, with "matching numbers" and "correctly configured and broached" stamp pad.

Because the rules have recently been changed, thanks to Mister Grenning, I believe that the time has now come to re-level the playing field. We must re-evaluate all those Top Flite/Duntov/McClelland cars that were "certified" before Mister Grenning showed us the way. An NCRS Top Flite/Duntov/McClelland award means a lot to most Corvette lovers, and since the NCRS is the premiere Corvette authority, then we owe it to the marque to be fair and balanced in our judgements. I am sorry to say, that Mr. Grenning's most recent findings will make some people unhappy, but we must remember that, that is what the NCRS stands for........preservation and authenticity.

Now, I have said my piece. I will still be available, here, to help anybody that is willing to take my advice. I know that there will be many that have a vested interest, and will attack me for what I have said. Remember what the founding principles were all about in 1974. We must keep our doors open to new members, otherwise we will be relegated to the dustbin of history. We owe it to ourselves, our beloved Corvettes, and our legacy, to accept and embrace change.

For any and all of my brother and sister NCRS members who own award winning automobiles. Get out your monoculars, and study your stamp pad. Study your trim tags. Then, armed with the latest knowledge, do what is right as you see it. Then you will truly be upholding the premise of the NCRS.

[Roy S.]

[Les Jacobs]

Re: Reply To Mr. Sinor

As a car owner who will probably never have a car judged, it seems to me it would be a great inconvenience if not impossibility for many owners to have their cars rejudged everytime the standards or techniques changed. The award is dated and means that a car met a particular standard at a particular time, not necessairly that it always will. They didn't take the Babe's homerun award away when "things changed", why should we?

[Roy S.]

Re: Reply To Mr. Sinor

I agree

[Chuck M.]

Re: Reply To Mr. Sinor

Sorry if this sounds stupid, who is Mr. Grenning and what did he find. Again, sorry if this subject has been talked about hundreds of times. Thanks as always.

Chuck

[Joe C.]

Re: Reply To Mr. Sinor

Roy:

Thank you for the reply. I won't beat a dead horse, but I do have only one question. If you proposed a change in 1992, then you must have felt the need for it. Why should you back off from your commitment now? If there are logistical issues and/or problems involved, then they can be addressed. You would certainly have all the help and time that I can give, and certainly many others, to engineer a solution.

Regards,
Joe

[Roy S.]

Re: Reply To Mr. Sinor

Joe,

When first proposed, the class would have been for non-original motor cars, non-original color cars, etc.

There was lets say a big uproar from within the organization.

[Joe R.]

Re: Mr. Grenning

Chuck,

Mr. Greening is a sleuth of the vin # and trim tag world. If you try to fake one he will seek you out and declare you a rip off artist.

Jokes aside, Al Greening has done his homework on vin # and trim tags. After many hours of research he has proposed a method to detect fake vin # and trim tags.

Believe you me, if he can detect them-someone can fake them even better-and will.

It's just a matter of "one up-manship".

The day that GM releases the information on all these Corvettes will be the day that all this ends. There will be hundreds-maybe thousands of 67 BB 435HP red and black Vettes disappear and never be seen again.

There will also be several people that manufacturer them taking the first plane out of town.

Regards,

JR

[Todd H 26112]

Re: Reply To Mr. Sinor

I think it's an EXCELLENT concept - and one that others on this forum as well as myself have suggested. I believe a LOT of folks have come to this very same idea independent of each other and of their own accord. It encourages folks to take excellent cars and restore them and get involved in judging without fear of numbers stamped on a piece of tin or nonfunctional portion of iron.

I think the determination of which (hypothetical) standard a car is judged to is determined by the owner but that a different name for each standard and it's associated awards would need to be implemented. E.g. top flight and top XXXX(?). I'd be curious ot know what the uproar was about specificlaly but suspect it may have been concern over diluting the value of existing awards and by implication values(?) of said cars. A notable upswing in existing participation levels in judging beyond current levels would likely present some logistical issues as well. Beyond that - not sure what other issues may have existed then (or now).

[Roy S.]

Re: Reply To Mr. Sinor

I was at that time the 1967 Team Leader and I felt and still feel that there might be some other venue of participation. There are problems with it, it would require a lot of system management, we have been Flight judging cars for almost thirty years and it is still not perfect. We have done Bowtie one time a year, for 11 years now, that system has undergone some major changes and in reality because we do it once a year we are up to the equivalent of 1977 in experience with it. The philosophy of a new class would have to be different, the score sheets different, the judges different, etc. I only say that because I have witnessed the transition from Flight judging to Bowtie judging, it is no easy to do. A third class could be real problematic for the judges. In reality the NCCC offers that product, but not against a standard against each other. The Board of Directors decided in 1993 not to offer a new venue, the program was reworked and evolved in to the Founders award in 1995.

My original proposal simply stated said: We will not deal with the originality side of our matrix at all, we only judge condition. There are obviously some restrictions that we would have to include.

[Todd H 26112]

Re: Reply To Mr. Sinor

That's too bad.

I would suggest that such a tier could judge not only condition but 'configuration':
I think such an approach would mitigate the cost factor in this class of judging for many hobbyist/restorers. Just as the Corvette itself benefited from the largeness of GM behind it - so to could such a hobbyist/restorer seek out the vast quantities of usable GM parts which could be properly restores/configured w/ minimal cost for correct functionality, configuration, appearance and configuration.

One change in judging I believe is that it would force focus mostly on the 'configuration' of parts - even more complex parts like say carbs w/ all their appendages, googahs and gizmos.

I disagree on NCCC in two forms: A) lack of a standard and B) zero sum in that there is a winner and by definition a loser.

I can see there would be considerable logistic issues. But I also believe this might open up involvment to a potentially much larger audience. The interest is still there and perhaps more-so given the rising costs of 'correct to original' restorations on older cars w/ ever shrinking bases of 'correct/original' parts available.

[Roy S.]

Re: Reply To Mr. Sinor

Heres a suggestion for you. Joe in this original thread said he would be interested in working on a project like this. The two of you work it out, not on this web site but together off line. If I can offer input I will be glad to and beieve me I have worked on it and have some suggestions. John Hinckley and Joe Ray haave also expressed interest in another tier of judging. You guys put something together a proposal. Send it to me, if the Team Leaders and I can make it work and decide it is feasable I will presnt it to the board of directors.

[Chuck M.]

Re: Mr. Grenning

Thanks for the help. Have there been any new developments on those records being released. Thanks again for all the help.

Chuck

[Joe C.]

Re: Reply To Mr. Sinor

Roy:

I appreciate your candor. Something in your response tells me that we both might be on the same side.

Believe me, as I said before, I am a traditionalist. I absolutely DO NOT want to tear down the bulwarks of our wonderful organization. If we can accommodate a seperate class of beautifully prepared automobiles, then we will IMHO, not only rekindle interest in the NCRS, but will welcome those that have been shut out by recent developments. The key word here, is REPRESENTATION. If we can institute a seperate judging class, then we will allow all of those folks who have painstakingly prepared their cars, at much time and expense, to re-enter the NCRS brotherhood, albeit in a different class/level.

This accomplishes 3 things, IMHO:

1. Allows the owner to state any "enhancements" that have been added.

2. Relieves any tension, and/or possible litigation due to misrepresentation.

3. Permits those folks who have spent much time, money, and energy in faithfully restoring their Covrette to share in the Process that makes the NCRS a special part of Americana.

Roy, I know that there are a lot of folks who willfully misrepresent their cars. There are also quite a few folks who have been duped by a predatory seller. Shouldn't we welcome these people into our ranks?

As far as resale value goes, I, for one would pay far more for a very desirable "NCRS Top Flite--Enhanced" car, than for an ugly duckling "NCRS Top Flite--Original" car. Then again, we are not in the resale business.

Please, Roy, remember that you once had the same idea as I now have. I will help you, and the Organization in any way I can in order to insure our survival. Without people like us, then the USA will be taken over by the ricers, and their ilk.

Last evening,I spent a lot of time on the telephone with our president. Although he did not disagree with me, he did refer me back to you. Apparently, Roy, you are held in very high esteem by your brother board members. Please go with your gut. Again, I say that I stand ready to help to engineer a solution if you decide to "grab the bull by the horns".

Best,
Joe

[Warren F.]

Re: Reply To Mr. Sinor

Joe:

I, like a lot of other people in this organization, joined because, the primary focus of this club was the PRESERVATION and RESTORATION of our beoved cars. There are TWO large Corvette organizations, as well as numerous individual groups that cater to Corvettes in any kind of format. If you are of the ilk to want a Corvette in other than factory guise, then participate in one of these organizations! NCCC & WSCC welcome 'vette' owners of all kinds. I believe that most people in this organization, are here because this is what the members want the club to focus on.