Way too much attention to one small part of a car

**Mark Milner** · December 4, 2003, 09:57 AM

Agree and Disagree

I agree that far too much is paid to the stamp pad. I have thought for a long time the ONLY way to rectify it is to devalue the pad to ZERO. Because right now, that pad means the $10,000 to $40,000 difference in the price of the car, and that is pure insanity.

Especially since so many have figured out how to stamp a pad. (Does anyone thing a company that sells two dozen 435 cars hasn't figured out what a correct 435 hp stamp looks like?) Too many have confused the RESTORED cars from 20 and 25 years ago as ORIGINAL today and so the real ORIGINAL are important, but they are only valuable from an historical reference viewpoint, not a monetary one.

It is a chunk of iron with 8 big holes, no different than any other chunk of iron with 8 big holes.

I disagree with the concours class. That is NCCC http://www.corvettesnccc.org and there is plenty of room for members there. In fact, I see no reason you can't be a member of both NCRS and NCCC. No where do the rules exclude a member of one from the other.

But the basic NCRS judging philosophy is not flawed. It is sound. The only exception is possibly too much emphasis is placed on the stamp pad for a RESTORATION judging class.

For an ORIGINALITY judging class (Bow Tie, Survivor), it would be fine. You want to detect the original from the fake, even if you need to use the Magnflux process or 100x magnification.

Concours Class Judging

**Tom Freeman** · December 4, 2003, 10:17 AM

Re: Agree and Disagree

"You want to detect the original from the fake, even if you need to use the Magnflux process or 100x magnification."

Agree but only if you are doing that on all items of the car. Do the same for the frame stamp. If not across the board then don't do it.

The bottom line to me is that we need someway to seperate the award of a Top Flight from the value/pricing of a car without reducing the value of a Top Flight award. Now that will really be a magic act to see

tom

**Duke W.** · December 4, 2003, 12:20 PM

Re: Way too much attention to one small part of a

I don't believe the frame stamp or transmission stamp are inspected in Flight judging because they are not reasonably accessible with the car on the ground.

Considering stamp pad points value to the total number of points and the effect of a NOM on the VALUE of a car, there should probably be MORE points associated with the stamp pad.

IMO the NCRS judging standard is reasonable, appropriate, and crystal clear, and any technology that judges can bring to bear to make the process more accurate and consistent is GOOD!

Duke

**Joe L.** · December 4, 2003, 01:16 PM

Re: Way too much attention to one small part of a

Tom-----

I agree with your comments regarding the stamp pad issue. In fact, I've said this same thing many times before. The whole thing with the stamp pad is rooted in "value" and "dollars". Those items have never really been a focus for me in this hobby, so I find the whole issue of the stamp pad to be WAY over-valued.

Keep in mind, though, that NCRS is not the "driving force" or "creator" of this obsession with stamp pads. That is a factor which is driven by human nature. NCRS (and NCCB) are merely the "instrument" for "authenticating" the "value" conferred by "original" stampings.

To me, restoration is all about CONFIGURATION. Engine pad stampings ARE a part of configuration, but a rather miniscule part. In the scheme of things, not much different than bolt headmarkings or, even, the configuration of front wheel grease caps that I recently discussed. Consequently, as a matter of rationality and proportionality, it seems to me that the pad stampings should be weighted about the same as far as "judging points" are concerned.

Notwithstanding the above, I think that NCRS has done a pretty good job of coming up with a "balanced" approach to point assignment for the pad stampings. While the point assigment is way more than could be justified on an objective and proportional basis compared to other items, it takes into account the "subjective and irrational" value which so many folks place on this item. That's the way that ANY political system works and ALL organizations, NCRS and otherwise, operate with political considerations and appropriately so.

**Joseph S.** · December 4, 2003, 01:55 PM

Right on!!! "NM" *NM*

**Dave Suesz** · December 4, 2003, 02:29 PM

Even if the $ difference was "0"...

Having a fake stamp is lying. If everything on the engine is correct, ie., casting #'s, date-appropriate, correct carb/dist/ign etc., then a car should receive the lions' share of the applicable points. Perhaps the value of the pad is too high, and consideration should be given to the totality of the engine, as I described. Hanging so much value on the pad encourages fraud. Having the "original" casting under the hood is mostly luck, many cars having the engine replaced under warranty when new, or simply catstrophic mechanical trouble in daily use. Not every NOM is a former basket case or parts collection.

**Larry Sherman** · December 4, 2003, 06:18 PM

Re: Even if the $ difference was "0"...

I have yet to see a restored carburetor, alternator or anything else that I thought was original and untouched. A new alternator diode with a proper ink stamp is as dishonest as a restamped motor. If I was rebuilding my engine and it was in legitimate need of deck resurfacing, I would resurface it and restamp the numbers as they originally were. I would feel honest enough about having done it. The original information and general form would be there. I wouldn't go looking for someone with the exact original stamps, nor would I try to reproduce the original broach marks. Trying to fool someone is the dishonest part. Why in hell would I feel bad about decking a block if my original battery is long gone. Restored is not the same thing as unused. My .02 and don't get me wrong. No organization can survive indefinitely without some discussion of the game plan. Larry

**Eugene B.** · December 4, 2003, 10:50 PM

Re: Have WE brought this on ourselves?

Gents,
Perhaps we, more specifically, the Corvette hobbiest brought this whole problem on ourselves. Think about it. Those of us who have original motor, numbers matching cars place a premium ($'s) on them because lucky they survived major engine disasters.

At a Corvette auction, matching numbers, etc. is one of the first items stated. Original motor, matching number cars just bring more money. And that's where the whole problem begins to unfold. Because they're worth more, more people try to phony up non-originals to increase their value.

Same reason people convert small blocks to big blocks. To fetch BIGGER dollars. Too many folks believe in the W. C. Fields quote that "Anything worth having is worth cheating for."

Some, who have posted here, apparently believe that an authentic, original motor, numbers matching car is worth no more than a phony. I wonder if they would feel the same way if they had one for sale?

Good Corvetting to all, and to all a good night!

Gene

**Mark Milner** · December 5, 2003, 12:22 AM

Re: Have WE brought this on ourselves?

It all depends on the viewpoint.

Did you buy your Corvette to sit around and appreciate?

Or did you buy it to drive?

If it is the first, there are a lot of stocks out there even in this economy that are doing better than Corvettes at appreciating.

If for the second, then a 350 in a '63 or a 283 in a '66 runs just fine and none of the numbers match.

As for selling, we all want to get as much as we can for something. Have you ever sold a car and boasted to the buyer that you've changed the oil, tuned it up, and washed and waxed it so it is ready for him right now? If you use that to boost a sale, you'd use the originality factor if you have it or the "recent engine rebuild" or "engine upgrade" if you don't have it.

**Tom B.** · December 5, 2003, 02:59 AM

A gleam of logic...

Gene,

Your response ranks at the top handful of logical messages I have read anywhere else around here.

True original optioned, original engine, matching numbers Corvettes have over time become the target (or level) that anyone else is trying to meet, match, or beat. Don't believe it?...spend an hour reading the auction decriptions on eBabe. Nearly every Corvette for sale is some comglomeration of a "no hit", "original mileage", "rare", "matching numbers", etc, investment grade Corvette.

Some folks just can't get past the facts of value, but rightly so original engine, original equipment, or original optioned cars are going to bring more money than the non-original car in the same condition. And to add to your statement, if someone doesn't want to believe it, then they are just the guy any seasoned artist (seller) is going to be looking for. TBarr #24014

**Bill Stephenson** · December 5, 2003, 09:46 AM

Re: Have WE brought this on ourselves?

Mark,

-------Corvette guys are,by and large,meat and potatoes guys! Many of us have had good careers,etc. that afford us the money to indulge ourselves a bit. BUT(notice the big but)none of us(that I know of anyway)are spendthrifts. I think that the majority of us want to know that the money we have poured into some old car is safe. Hence the ongoing focus on value,in my opinion. How many times have you heard "Ill never sell this car,it will go to my kid" and then heard the "Whats a car just like mine worth?" or something close in the next sentence. This is pretty normal for us M+P guys.
-------Just look at the Ferrari guys. Quiche for the most part.Still good people,you understand,just in some other dimension that the M+P guys dont quite understand. I know I dont! I cant tell you how many Corvette guys,me included,that I have heard say "I cant believe those Ferrari guys vintage race those cars". When I stop and think,I say to myself "good for them,wish I could abuse my car like that". But I wont. I drive it,but not like that. Its hard to change us M+P guys!
-------Do these random thoughts enter into your scenarios above? Sure! Values are important. M+P guys always have that "what if the roof caves in" scenario going on in the deep recesses of thier brains. Its not only nice to know that your investment is safe,but makes you look somewhat sane to your friends and family! Values were and will always be a double edged sword. If you are looking to buy a Corvette the prices are ridiculous. If you have your Corvette,no matter what you might say,you really dont mind the upward price creep. Us M+P guys have to keep up with inflation,dont ya know!
-------"Did you buy your Corvette to appreciate or to drive?" Most of us bought our car because you can do both with a vintage Corvette if everything goes right!.........Bill S

**Everett Ogilvie** · December 5, 2003, 10:19 AM

"Original" not unique to Corvette hobby

I posted something similar to this long ago on this Board, but it seems appropriate again, and maybe some of the newer folks will find it interesting.

Placing a higher value on originality is not unique to Corvettes. Any advanced collector in any genre knows this to be the case. There are 3 factors that drive value or price; rarity, originality, and condition. The most desirable piece is one that has all three factors going for it, but lesser combinations are also desirable.

Consider the arena of antique firearms collecting with the following example: two identical Sharps Model 1874 rifles configured with set triggers, long, heavy barrels, and in a large caliber (these are extremely valuable collector pieces - "buffalo rifles"). One is in mint condition 130 years later because it received little use and was well cared for. The other has no finish remaining, is missing small pieces, and is in very rough overall condition because it was well used and possibly poorly maintained (allowed to rust, never cleaned etc.). Both of these pieces have the original barrel and receiver and either of these major parts is the equivalent of an original engine in a car. Both pieces command high prices, but for different reasons - the piece with condition is desirable because it remains a perfect example 130 years later of rifles that were produced in the era. The piece with low condition is also desirable because it still has the original major parts, but the lack of condition causes this piece to bring lower prices than the pristine piece. If the worn out piece can establish a historical connection to a person, place or event, then you enter a new arena of rarity, and prices here can skyrocket.

If either piece above has a replacement barrel (configured exactly like the original), the value goes down. The pristine piece with rarity, originality, and condition may be worth double the same piece if the barrel has been replaced. The historical piece will suffer far less due to replacement pieces because the history part of the equation outweighs the original parts piece of the equation.

These examples translate perfectly to collector cars. The all-original, low mileage car in top condition, with a desirable engine option is at the top of the heap for prices. This car received little use, was well cared for, and it will bring top values. A worn out Bowtie car (highly original) will also command good prices because it has survived with minimal replacement of pieces, but poor condition can drive down the price, as compared to the mint condition car. A historic car (say a '63 Z06 race car tied to a well-known personality) will command high prices even though configuration of the car may not resemble how it left the factory - the price of historical cars is driven mostly by the history component of the equation, rather than the originality component.

Cars with original engines will always bring the highest prices, as well they should due to the fact that the engine is a major component. Arguments that other minor pieces should be valued the same as the engine are ridiculous, and this heavy weighting that is applied to major components is not unique to NCRS Corvettes.

**Warren F.** · December 5, 2003, 12:46 PM

Re: "Original" not unique to Corvette hobby

Everett:

Very well stated!

Your last sentence, is a little disturbing to me. I believe there are other components of a car that do rate as much or more value than the engine itself. An example might be the 4 wheel disc brake option on '69 Z28's, or the big brake option on C1's, or the big tanks on C2's. I think current owners of these cars with this type of rare option place values on the cars much higher than if they did not have these components, regardless of engine option.

**Gary C.** · December 5, 2003, 01:37 PM

Re: "Original" not unique to Corvette hobby

Everett

good points, well stated. I believe I read a previous post that somewhow tried to lay the original cylinder case and restamps discussion at the feet of the NCRS due to the way things are judged and scored. In addition to your examples, one only has to look to 1969 Z28's with all the trickery and DZ restamps that goes on there. So far as I know that arena has no links to NCRS, yet the same types of things occur exactly for the reasons you stated and because people are people, everywhere you go.

Way too much attention to one small part of a car

Way too much attention to one small part of a car

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