Way too much attention to one small part of a car

[Charlie P.]

Re: "Original" not unique to Corvette hobby

I think a disproportionate amount of emphasis is put on the originality of the engine stamp pad because it is in fact a serialized part of the car. So there is some logic to using it as the ultimate indicator of "as it left the factory". Of course, all non-serialized parts could come from another car (if dates right), old stock (if dates right), or repro supply house (if good enough).

Is not, or should not, the Flight judging process be considered purely a test of original-to-factory configuration correctness, versus original-to-car authenticity? I think the manual states the former, and the latter CANNOT be done without build sheets anyway, which are not part of the process. This being the case, a very minor deduction, or maybe none (see below) should be given for incorrect broach marks only in the case of a re-stamped block, assuming numbers are correct.

I happen to think a not-original-to-car engine configuration should be a total deduct, but even that is kinda hard to rationalize when other not-original-to-car equipment can be added without detection. The engine is different, I guess, because it is the soul of the car, and again, it is tied to it by serial number.

Should a car with the original-to-car engine get a higher recognition than one with a "restored" replacement engine? ABSOLUTELY! My thought there would be to add "Elite" to the award to distinguish those cars with verified original engines, i.e., "Top Flight Elite", "Second Flight Elite" etc. (would not apply to Bowtie). That way, guys with re-stamps have less angst about achieving Flights, and cars with original stamps get distinction and elevation above the crowd. Of course, in this case, all available means to detect re-stamping would have to be employed in judging.

[Everett Ogilvie]

Major vs. Minor, and Serial Numbers

I was drafting this post and now see that another poster has mentioned serial numbers, which is somewhat the heart of the matter in my opinon.

Warren, thanks for the comment. I used the word minor in the last sentence to specifically address past arguments claiming that an original alternator is as substantial as an original engine (or starter, water pump, carburetor, and various other examples that are often cited). The argument that is usually made is that if a person buys a "correct" alternator or a restamped alternator, and that item judges fine, why isn't a non-original engine worth the same as an original engine... the difference between major and minor should be pretty clear in this example. I completely agree with you that there are many options that are very rare and substantial, and these types of options should be valued and weighted appropriately by owners, buyers, and sellers - i.e the '63 Z06 option is substantial and valuable indeed! I have not made an attempt at "ranking" the importance of various components or options, but there can be little disagreement that the engine (regardless of whether it is a base or optional engine) is a major component of the car. In addition, and perhaps most importantly, engines are stamped with the serial number of the car, which tends to separate them from some rare options which don't stamp serial numbers on those parts.

As an aside, it has always been interesting for me to consider the transmission, which is also stamped with the VIN, and how much importance should be placed on it. The last time I judged chassis, NCRS was not judging assembly or VIN stamps on transmissions in Flight judging, and I am not saying we should (they are much harder to see with the same detail that the engine stamp pad is, and there are no broach marks). However, when I purchase a car I place a very high value on having the original transmission in the car. I personally would not rank the transmission quite equal to the engine, but it is a major component in my opinion. What I am trying to say here is that I would pay more for a car with the original trans than if it is a replacement and this is strictly a personal preference because my interest is mostly Bowtie type cars. I have owned several Bowtie cars in the past and none of them had original batteries, tires, etc, but this did not diminish the value of the car for me, because I don't rank these items as major as the engine or transmission, both of which are serially matched to the car.

[Larry Sherman]

Re: Major vs. Minor, and Serial Numbers

Everett
I agree that there is no comparison in the importance of an alternator to an engine in the value of a car, but I don't see the difference in honesty between a restamped and restored alternator and a restored and restamped engine. Neither one came with the car, so why is a guy a great restorer if he has a "correct" altrnator, but he is a crook if he has a "correct" engine. I understand that he's likely to make the car more valuable with either, but the engine will make it MORE more valuable. It depends on what what means. Geez, is Bill back in office? Larry

[Warren F.]

Re: Major vs. Minor, and Serial Numbers

Everett:

Thanks, I couldn't agree more.

[Mark Milner]

Re: Have WE brought this on ourselves?

-------"Did you buy your Corvette to appreciate or to drive?" Most of us bought our car because you can do both with a vintage Corvette if everything goes right!.........

Actaully, I meant to say the "price to appreciate" because it is obvious none of us would put this much effort in if we didn't appreciate Corvettes.

If you are looking to buy a Corvette the prices are ridiculous. If you have your Corvette,no matter what you might say,you really dont mind the upward price creep. Us M+P guys have to keep up with inflation,dont ya know!

Actually, I do mind, because as the price of the car goes up, so does the price of the parts. And if you really drive it and not just rare weekends, you end up having to replace parts. And insurance goes up. When your car was $5000, you could decide to insure or risk it. When it went to $25,000, you didn't have a choice. When it went to $40,000, you had to take a home equity loan to pay the premiums. Unless you have the insurance that won't let you get out of the car if not in your locked garage.

The prices going up really don't help the meat and potatoes guy, but it does help those who deal in Corvettes, buying and selling constantly. The M&P guy has to ride the wave. Don't fall off, because you can't get back on. If you sell your Corvette, you HAVE to get another immediately to keep from having the price wave rise too much to reach.

If you worry about the "roof falling in", you have no business with such a toy. Get a good CD and some good investment plans and save your money.

When I stop and think,I say to myself "good for them,wish I could abuse my car like that". But I wont. I drive it,but not like that. Its hard to change us M+P guys!

Corvette owners who restore drive so little, NCRS had to put a premium on driving to get them out. No one knew what trailer queens were until people began restoring. A few years back, some tried to get some vintage drag racing going in NCRS. When is the last time you saw an NCRS car drag racing? And yet, that is true to what happened the first Saturday night after delivery from the dealer.

Vintage racing. Did you ever notice the guys with the big buck irreplaceable cars are racing but the guys with the run-of-the-mill Corvettes are not because they are afraid they will ruin them?

Road rallies. Try suggesting NCRS do one of those during a weekend meet for those not showing. You'd have thought you suggested painting one with a brush! Yet a road rally is simply a game of navigating according to written instructions on a public road slower than the posted speed limit. But you might get a rock chip.

Autocross? Forget that, one cone can destroy a $6000 restoration paint job and with the reaction times of many on here, they'd eat a dozen cones.

At one NCRS meet a few years ago, a dad walked up with his two kids. He asked politely if they could stand next to the car and get their picture taken. I told him I could do better than that. I picked up each one and sat them in the seats so he could get them "driving" the Corvette.

Their smiles were a mile wide. He couldn't stop thanking me, saying that almost everyone else had yelled to not touch their car, get back from their car, and so on. Get a life people, it is a CAR. In the light of all eternity, what does it matter to having a little kid sit in your car? That kid is the future of NCRS, and you chase them off, they'll drive and worship rice rockets 20 years from now. And your Corvette will be a collectible with no market. How fast do Model T's sell today? I bet you could make a bundle selling '39 Chevies or '40 Fords today.

Not only have we brought this on ourselves, we are making it worse each day.

[Warren F.]

Re: Have WE brought this on ourselves?

Mark:

Maybe some are as you speak with their cars. I am both, I have trailered the 'vette over 15,000 miles in 63 days to events, in 2001. The car has been shown nationally, regionally and chapter wise in NCRS. It has also been autocrossed, drag raced and road rallyed. I do both because I don't want to wear out the car driving all over the country just to get to these events! However, the car was probably purchased by the original owner, to have fun doing these type of driving events, and I get immense pleasure also doing these events with the car, whether it be the Pure Stock Drags or Factory Stock Drags in both Ohio and Michigan, or the American Muscle Car Association and Corvettes at Carlisle meet in Kentucky and Pennsylvania. I just wish these great events were in my back yard, and not 2000 miles away!

[Everett Ogilvie]

Re: Major vs. Minor, and Serial Numbers

Hi Larry - I agree with you that there is no difference in honesty between the two cases. The difference between the two comes in when someone says it is the original engine knowing that it is not. I have never felt that a guy is a crook if he restores his stamp pad. I intended to do it myself on the L89 project car (the block had been decked and I raised the numbers with acid - see the archives). The honesty discussions seem to center around the situation when the original restorer of the pad tells the guy he sells it to that it is a restored pad - then several owners later the car is being represented as the original engine. I guess a guy is either honest or he is not - if he has integrity he will tell the truth about the alternator the same as the engine. If he bends the truth about one, he lacks true integrity, right? Also, we can never control what happens to these cars when they are out of our hands.

[Larry Sherman]

Re: Major vs. Minor, and Serial Numbers

Everett
Pretty much the way I see it, but better stated. Thanks

[Tom Freeman]

Correctness or Originality

One additional question. Does NCRS judge a car to a standard of "correctness" or to a standard of "originality"? Say someone showed up at the judging field with a '69 ZL1 (not one of the two known to exist). No documentation. Just a perfect car. All stamps are correct, all broach marks correct, etc, etc. Everyone is 99.9% sure that it is a clone, but it is a 100% correct car. Would that car be judged?

I feel that it would have to be judged and given its Top Flight based on the fact that it is a "correct" car. If we did not judge it, saying that it could not exist, then we, the NCRS, would be getting into the business of certifying cars as original. By not judging it the same as the others judged are we then saying that in the opinion of the NCRS the others are original?

Just food for thought.

tom...

[Roy B.]

Re: Correctness or Originality

Years ago and to day I see many Corvettes that judges know were not original but they were CORRECT. Many get top Flight. That is why you see many FI,Big brake, 427 and other Corvettes. ( they are correct NOW!) You rarely see a Corvette with out a radio, heater,softop, no power any thing , small block and so on. 53 to 55 Corvette owners have no problem because they are all a like
( no factory options here)! Dealer options YES but in NCRS , NO NO.