how do you tell them ... continued

[Clare Carpenter]

Dale, answer me this....

You say that the owner is aware that the car is not a legitimate original 427/435 car. How does he know that? What does he plan to do about it? Was the judging done at the chapter, regional or national level?

You also say "what a sweet way to make money". I'm not so sure, considering the cost to acquire a decent restorable BB car, then restoration expenses, including the cost to acquire and build a correctly dated and stamped 427/435. Not too mention all of the other less obvious but expensive stuff required complete the picture and the investment could easily be close to what the car would bring at a sale, especially if a shop was paid to do the work. Of course, it would be tough to even recover the investment if it was properly represented and sold as a 427/435 "clone".

>>..I did contact him and talked as if I was just curious about the car and some of the history .. he bought the car from a dealer ( who I tried to contact and can not locate in Fl) .. the car was bought as 100% orginal and fully documented all the way back to the selling dealership .. my name nor my fathers ever appeared yet this is our old 67 corvette .. which I can prove ...

[Clare Carpenter]

Re: Dale, answer me this....

If the car was bought as a documented car and sold as 100% original, then he has recourse. If the ownership history was fabricated (that is easy to verify) and your name was left off, that would be fraudulent for sure. If your name was left off, then most likey the others are wrong too, no real history to verify actual options!? Again I would ask how he found out and what he intends to do about it? Is he just glad that he got it "Top-Flighted" because he thinks it will make it easier to pass it off on someone else? If he knowingly sells it as a real car then he perpetuates the fraud and would be liable I would think. Just because the NCRS judged it as "Top Flight" doesn't "certify" the car in any way.

Why are you so frustrated with this whole scenario? It isn't the first time a car (Corvette or otherwise) has been misrepresented. You aren't the damaged party in this case. Perhaps a bit of jealousy, (he says it's a red/red 427/435 but you know better)?

If I were in this guy's shoes I would use any damages received to acquire a correctly dated 390HP and build the car back to the way it was originally optioned when delivered. Should be some change in the pocket too, after selling the 427/435. Of course, it still wouldn't be the original motor, would it?

[George C.]

Re: It's a pity the GM invoices aren't available..

In all the years I sold new Corvettes at Palmyra Motors Inc. I know the local GMAC branch keep records of all the cars in dealer inventory, they had copies of all the invoices. I have suggested that you find the dealer code on your tank sticker or if you have the sticker get the dealers name and town and contact the local GMAC Branch. Example: Palmyra Motor Inc. Palmyra, New York Dealer Code 12 500. Local Branch was Pittsford, New York. Sharpen you pencil and get your quarters ready and hope you get someone who understand how you feel about Corvette. Good Luck hope this helps, Save the Wave.>George

[Dale P.]

here is you reply

First, I am making the connection between the owner's comments that he made
concerning the judging and in particular one of the judges .. questioning the
"original stamp" of the block pad .. the owner made several comments that the
judge kept saying (asking) are you sure that this is original ..the owner replied yes
to the judge .. why would he even begin to bring that up IF he was 100% sure that
the car was correct??? No logical reason at all .. especially when I never asked
him about how the judging went .. so you make whatever call you think .. to me ..
he knows !!
secondly, am I jealous as you imply ... don't think so .. I have two corvettes in the
garage now .. his and hers !!! .. both big blocks !!!
Not sure the event at which the car was judged .. don't know /// don't care
AM I implying that the NCRS is some how at fault or should be a watch dog ..
NOT AT ALL ...... the NCRS does what it should .. educate/instruct and help with
tech advice . just because the car was top flight at an NCRS event was only to
show the level of detail that went into this car to make it a 435HP car ..
as far as your comment about my statement making good money (or something
like that) .. there would be a lot fewer corvette dealers in business today if the
profit margin was as low as you imply it is ...
why an I frustrated .. mainly because of my up bringing .. I hate to see bad things
happen to good people ..

[Clare Carpenter]

Re: here is you reply

Dale, I meant no disrepect to you with my comment regarding jealousy. Heck, we've never met and we're in the same club after all. Perhaps jealousy wasn't the right word. Part of Corvette ownership is ego driven. Sometimes our prideful egos get in the way of logic. You said you have two BB "His & Hers" in the garage,(exclaimated twice for emphasis). You didn't say if one or both was the all elusive and highly coveted '67 427/435 HP. Now your neighbor, friend, aquaintence, or whatever, has one and not only is it a BB, but it is also a Red/Red 427/435 Top Flight and you're not so unique anymore, BUT in reality you know his is a clone and you're dying to tell someone. This board suited that purpose.

You made the point of the owner bringing up the judging and wonder why logically he would, since you didn't inquire. Not so unusual really, especially if this was his first experience and he knew you were a NCRS member and owned two BB cars. He might have been looking for some insight, especially since assumingly, he laid out big bucks for a car he thought was documented and original. Yet the judge kept asking him if he was sure it was original. Maybe now he has some doubts?? However, his car did judge as a Top Flight on that day. You stated you don't know or care if it was a regional or national event yet it is important to note. A car that judges at a regional meet might not judge at a national. By the way, I have never seen a judge ask the owner if the engine was original. I could be wrong, but I think they make that determination on their own without the owners insight. I've followed this thread with interest and piped in with my comments along the way due to a similar personal experience.

I've never owned a BB car but did go through the oddessey of search, purchase, documentation, judging, the NCRS opinion that the block couldn't have been original due to the time elapsed from casting date to the assembly date, a disappointed and pissed off owner (my friend) who thought he bought an original motor and matching numbers car; that's what the buyers order stated too, a refund of 10k, (yes, this dealer did the right thing but claimed to have no knowledge that the car wasn't original), the search for and acquisition of a correctly dated block which was decked and restamped by a guy who was supposed to have the right stamps and could do it so it was undetectable, it still didn't pass judging (this time at Bloomington) due to suspect brooch marks, then another search for and big bucks paid to acquire a correctly dated block with a never stamped bare pad which was stamped by an un-named inside expert. Viola, Welcome to the club, you've paid your dues! Top Flight!!! and Bloomington Gold!!!

This car was a very nice restoration, it had the tank sticker and original protecto-plate and much of the original and subsequent documentation. It was in fact, definately a real 1967 427/435 HP car. My friend talked to the previous owners (3-4 I think) and none of them remembered (or admitted) to an engine change. So it's a complete mystery on this particular car why the engine that was in the car when my friend purchased it, had a casting date that was too early for the assembly date of the car. When he was done my friend had close to $80k invested. I know he had a lot of fun with the process and all of the nit picking details (beyond the engine) that go into getting the car into that category. He was never in it for the money but wanted to protect his investment and make his car the best it could be. A couple of years later he sold the car for $60+ net through a dealer that had it on consignment, after several months of being listed. The dealer earned a nice commission with no money of his own invested. Every dealer purchase and subsequent sale is unique but dealers try to make their money on the purchase. In other words it's a bid/offer market. The dealer that sold my frend's car would've bought it outright for inventory but for alot less money and at a price my friend wasn't willing to accept.

If, as you say, you hate to see bad things happen to good people, you might want to relate the story I've told to your pal. As I stated in an earlier post, he is the damaged party. If the car was represented fraudulently, and it appears it was, then he is entitled to compensation. He might even get it without litigation, as my friend did. In the end, it sounds like he still has a nice car that will turn heads, cloned or otherwise.

[Mark Milner]

Re: here is you reply

This car was a very nice restoration, it had the tank sticker and original protecto-plate and much of the original and subsequent documentation. It was in fact, definately a real 1967 427/435 HP car. My friend talked to the previous owners (3-4 I think) and none of them remembered (or admitted) to an engine change. So it's a complete mystery on this particular car why the engine that was in the car when my friend purchased it, had a casting date that was too early for the assembly date of the car.

This is one of the biggest shames I can think of. We hear of this type of thing far too often, a car believed to be original, by all the owners involved, but because someone of "authority" says it isn't, then the offending part is removed and replaced with the "correct" part.

What if the engine truly was original AND was just one of those anamolies that we do see occasionally?

In the quest for originality, do we sometimes destroy the original?

[John H.]

Re: It's a pity the GM invoices aren't available..

Doubt if they've retained any records that old; most of the Big 3 now have records retention policies that say pitch anything more than three years old unless it's tax-related; if it doesn't exist, it can't be "discovered" by plaintiff attorneys. I used to get a friendly reminder every November from the legal staff.

[Clare Carpenter]

The title could be Top Flight is not always right.

Mark, In the case of my friend's car it may have been exactly as you state, or it may not. If I remember correctly, the engine had a cast date 5 months prior to the build date. The Judges counciled on this and believed this was very unlikely, if not impossible, due to the scheduling and production calendars at that time. Once this was decided, a great deal of attention was given to the stamp pad. I don't believe any concensus was reached on the pad. The recognized NCRS expert on pads was not present at this meet. Since the goal was a Top Flight and this engine wouldn't cut it, due to the casting dates....out it came. Was it the original motor? Who knows?