1st design caliper update

[Ian S.]

Hello,

This is a follow up to the earlier thread on brake caliper ID and 1st design calipers.

I called Lonestar and they did have first design calipers. They also said that they did not come with new pistons but had refurbished pistons. New pistons are $160.00 additional per caliper. When I asked about the o-ring option I was told that they no longer do this on account of poor reliability and many warranty returns. I was asked if the car is a show car since they do not recommend 1st design calipers for cars that are driven on a regular basis. In their opinion the third design is the safest and most reliable.

As much as I would like to return the calipers to original I just don't feel right about not having new pistons. I like to drive the car and the extra $$ for 1st design with new pistons is a lot. The car has third design calipers now and has performed great. The 3rd design calipers Lonestar offers all come with new pistons.

I ended up with a major headache after talking to different vendors about brakes and finally ended up just going with rebuilt 3rd design. Is this crazy?

[Roger Legge]

Re: 1st design caliper update

Slightly off-topic, but I have a favor to ask the board. Could someone either point me to a source or give a high level overview of 1st, etc, caliper designs? I'm still fairly novice in knowledge and all I was aware of was standard calipers and the J56 pieces. For example, I concluded from a recent thread that calipers were not judged for specifics such as casting specifics, etc. Thanks in advance.

Roger
#36316

[mike cobine]

Determine your goals, then

follow through to complete them. If your goal is to have the calipers in the original configuration, then do so. That is $640 on top of the price of the calipers so you ar elooking at roughly $1000.

In the scheme of things, if you needed to get a correctly numbered and dated block, a correct and rebuilt transmission, or a new interior, you'd be spending roughly the same amount and not complaining or at least not asking if this is necessary.

However, if your goal is to drive and enjoy the car without the need of originality for judging, then you have answered yourself in that the car drives well with the calipers on it.

I believe others have said that these are not judged, although I don't know why, because if you use mirrors to check everywhere else, you could easily use a mirror and light to see if the pistons have the insulators or not without removing a wheel.

I don't think you will see any difference in performance in normal driving. I went with them on my '66 because I was racing it, and the insulators helped to slow the heat transfer to the fluid. A friend used standard second design or maybe third design on his '67 and within a couple of laps had much longer braking distances due to heat, but was about the same prior to that. Since you will doubtfully ever be taking yours into a 90 degree corner at 160 and repeating that several times about a minute apart, I doubt you will ever see any performance increase from your $1000 investment in brakes.

[Craig S.]

Re: 1st design caliper update

I agree with Mike - nothing wrong with the follow on design. I may have opted for the correctly numbered caliper castings that had the center supports machined out to use the later pistons. It is interesting on the O-ring comments, I went with O-rings on my 67 from VB due to the supposed reliability increase and the good words here from other members. I haven't installed them yet, but hope there are no issues....I had VB perform a restoration build with black paint, and thier warranty numbers on the inside of the calipers vs the way they usually grind the exterior of the housings. My 67 had a perfectly operable set of VB unmatched calipers on it, but VB let me return them as cores to them since they were theirs. Most often, pre-sleeved core returns are not a credit....Craig

[mike cobine]

Re: 1st design caliper update

I also had good luck with VB. If I had a special need, they would do it, such as return my calipers to me rebuilt. For the race car, they set up a set of dual pin first design with the insulators and at the time, it was a minor price adjustment.

They were about the only ones who would rebuild first design. Most simply cut the insides out for second design pistons.

Of course the last caliper dealings were about 15 years ago, although I have bought other parts since then. And the insulators were getting hard to find then. Someone began reproducing them but I believe there was a problem when really put to the test with vintage racers. I don't remember who now.

[Patrick H.]

Re: 1st design caliper update

Ian,

Our 66 had two original castings. Vette Brakes supplied two original castings to match, and we went with O-ring pistons. You can't see the pistions or any difference once installed, and we couldn't justify the $ for "correct" insulated pistons. But, "all the numbers match."

Just my $0.02

Patrick

[Mark Milner]

Re: 1st design caliper update

If it were me, I'd stay with the calipers I have if they work. If you take the car to a meet and it gets hit for the wrong calipers, then I'd weigh how many points I lost versus how many I need to achieve the award I want, and see if the money required is worth it. You are about $640 in pistons alone. So many rebuild packages run $300 or so, and that puts you about $1000.

And a $1000 buys a lot of other parts and gas for driving.

[Craig S.]

Re: 1st design caliper update

Patrick - I had VB find 4 correct untouched castings for my 67, and had them do the O-ring pistons and black NCRS restoration too, they look great. I hope the comments about O-ring pistons from Lonestar (note posts above) don't give us problems over time, I haven't installed mine yet....Craig

[Eugene B.]

Re: 1st design caliper update

Ian,
Sorry that this brake issue has given you a giant sized headache. Perhaps increasing your knowledge bank regarding calipers made it somewhat worth while.

If my '65 did not have its original calipers, I probably would not run right out and spend a $1000 to obtain them when I had a set that worked fine.

It is interesting that the TIM & JG documents the caliper casting numbers but does not mention the heat insulators. I'm not sure if the judges even look for the casting numbers?

Brakes are obviously a very important part of the chassis and if the car is restored correctly, they should be addressed and therefore judged. With all the attention that is given to engine pads and numbers on starters, it is my opinion that the calipers should also be judged for numbers and heat insulators.

As for my car, if the Series 1 rebuilds turn out to be a headache, I'll probably buy a set of third series and put my originals in boxes to keep with the car for a future owner.

Best of luck with your '66.

Regards,
Gene

[Patrick H.]

Re: 1st design caliper update

My 72 has O-rings and they've done fine for several years.

I would suggest that VB's O-rings may differ from Lonestar's, and therein lies the difference.

PH

[Joe L.]

Re: 1st design caliper update

Patrick----

Vette Brakes uses an o-ring piston of their own design and patent. As far as I know, it is not the same as the "Zero Tolerance"/ Willard Kendig piston which is the other unit available on the market. ZT pistons don't use a piston return spring and Vette Brakes pistons do. There may be other design differences, too. Presumably, both have their own patents, so there must be enough difference in design to avoid problems with patent right infringement (or, VB licenses the ZT technology and modifies to their own design).

I have long had reseverations about the o-ring design as I've stated on the board many times in years past (the basis for my concern being why didn't GM use this design in the first place?). In the last few years I've "come around" to the o-ring design based upon the good experiences of yourself and others. I've heard very little regarding problems. I did hear of one report that the o-ring design does not work well under hard racing conditions when high heat is generated. Most of us don't get involved in that sort of thing, so that concern should't be a problem.

This report from Lonestar concerns me more. I'd like to hear more about the problems that they've experienced and what o-ring pistons that they use.

[Joe L.]

Re: 1st design caliper update

Ian, et al-----

Let's get one thing straight here. You CAN have first design caliper CASTING NUMBERS, but second design pistons. The second design pistons do not use insulators (except J-56), but the insulators are extremely difficult, if not impossible, to see with the calipers installed on the car.

Most of the first design calipers have been already converted to second design by rebuilders. Most of these calipers failed and were sleeved WAY before anyone even cared (or knew about) about first design versus second design pistons. Although converted to second design (and MUCH less expensive) pistons, they, nevertheless, retain their first design casting numbers. So, if casting numbers are important to you, you CAN have first design casting numbers without resorting to trying to find (and PAY FOR) the cost of first design pistons. I would think that first design casting number calipers converted to second design piston configuration would be a lot easier to find, too, than those first design calipers retaining their first design INTERNAL configuration. Like I say, most of the first design calipers HAVE BEEN converted to the second design piston configuration.

[Ian S.]

Re: 1st design caliper update

Joe,

Lonestar told me that they have not offered O-ring pistons in over two years. My head was pretty much swimming by the time he was explaining why they don't use them. He did repeat the statement several times that o-ring pistons were a very bad idea for Corvette brakes. He also mentioned something about them either allowing "garbage" to collect or making it so that "garbage had no where to go. What he meant by garbage I don't know. I'm sorry I can't tell you more but I am a prime example of what happens when technical issues are explained to a very non technical person.

I also spoke with someone today in my brake quest who stated that they felt the first design rebuilt to factory standards with the addition of being sleeved were a much better brake than any of the following designs. Another vendor told me that the only time they recommend the o-ring is if the car is going to be as they called it a "hanger queen". I really don't know which way to go since being in the midwest the car does sit for half of the year while the snow falls.