C1 Fluids

[Lenn Nelsen]

Sorry about the new post, but evidently my previous post was not clear and misunderstood. I'm not interested in where the fluids go, but what fluids to use.

My newly acquired '62 327/250hp w/Powerglide just came off the truck and is now sitting in the garage. It has an "original motor with 57k" and the first thing I want to do is change out all the fluids. I have some ideas on what to use, but on others I don't know...

--Engine:
Valvoline MaxLife 10W-30
Filter?
--Gas Tank:
91 Octane Unleaded
Gunk Lead Substitute
104+ Octane Boost
Sta-bil
Chevron Techron
--Brakes: Gunk DOT3
--Transmission: ?
--Rear End: ?
--Radiator: ?

Any input/comments (positive or negative - on or offline) would really be appreciated.

Thanks

[John H.]

Re: C1 Fluids

Lenn -

No magic involved here - just use the proper brand-name fluids.

Oil - Any brand-name 10W30, filter depends on whether it still has the original canister-type filter or has been converted to spin-on.

Fuel - It will run fine on pump premium - no need for lead substitutes, octane boosters, or Sta-Bil.

Brakes - Brand-name DOT3 or DOT4 fluid; probably needs a good flush and bleed - check first to see what kind of fluid is in it now (DOT3/4 or DOT5 silicone).

Trans and Rear End - Brand-name Dexron fluid for the trans, 75W90 gear lube for the diff (GM diff lube and Posi additive if it's a Posi).

Radiator - Good old "green stuff" (Prestone, Zerex, etc.) - probably needs a drain, flush and refill (including pulling the plug on each side just above the pan rail - hardly anyone ever bothers with those, and that's the ONLY place you can drain the crud-filled water jackets around the cylinders).

[Lenn Nelsen]

Re: C1 Fluids

Thanks for the reply. your understanding is appreciated.
Believe it or not, it's getting hard to find premium without a 15% level of corn syrup in it here in Iowa...and sometimes the label on the pump saying it is a mixture is missing.

[Joe L.]

Re: C1 Fluids

Lenn-----

I don't think that you'll have any problem with fuel with up to 15% ethanol. GM approves the use of fuel with up to this % for all of its cars. Of course, that approval may not include cars built 40 years ago, but I still don't think that you'll have any problem with it. The very worst thing that could happen would be that you'll need to rebuild your fuel pump and carburetor a bit earlier than you otherwise would have to. When that time comes, use currently manufactured kits and they'll be equipped with the latest rubber compounds and gasket components.

Before long, I don't think that you'll be able to find any gasoline without some % ethanol. The MTBE ban pretty much drives that equation. MTBE was used to manufacture "cleaner burning" gasoline AND increase octane rating. So, something else has to be used now. That "something else" is ethanol.

When the use of MTBE first became known (actually, it had been used for quite a few years before anyone ever heard of it), everyone was blaming it for everything, including failed fuel systems. I NEVER believed that MTBE was bad for fuel systems and I think that the "science" that got it banned as a "health hazard" was seriously flawed. More politics and a demagogic reaction to unfounded public hysteria over the issue.

Anyway, ethanol is a GOOD thing. It's "home grown" (MTBE was manufactured from petroleum, just like the rest of the components of gasoline), very renewable, good for the agriculture industry, and it will significantly reduce our reliance on imported oil. What more could you ask for?

Many, many years ago, at the very "birth" of the automotive revolution in this country, Henry Ford said that gasoline was only an "interim" fuel and that alcohol would replace it in the long term. He was talking, specifically, about the use of methanol. Due to problems with methanol (corrosivity and lower per-unit fuel value), I don't think that methanol will ever come to pass as a widespread fuel. Ethanol will, though. At least as a gasoline/ethanol mixture and we may see higher ethanol concentrations in the years to come.

[Bill Jackson]

Re: C1 Fluids

Enjoy that 62. One of my previous cars was 62 #00329. A 250Hp powerglide that was one of the nicest cruising early models I ever drove.

[Duke W.]

Re: C1 Fluids

As stated you do not need fuel additives. Use the highest octane pump premium available and set the initial timing to spec. If there is any detonation reduce the initial timing until it goes away.

I recommend HD diesel engine oil (API service category CH-4) for all vintage engines without catalytic converters. HD diesel engine oils have a higher dose of detergent, dispersant, anti-wear, and anti oxidation additives than current blends for spark ignition oils (API service category SJ). The level of additives in spark igntion oils has been reduced over the years because the precise fuel metering of modern engines results in less crankcase dilution and the combustion byproducts of some of these additives are not kind to converters.
My current brand is Chevron Delo 15W-40, which is the common multi-vis grade for CH-4 oils, which is suitable for year round use down to about 10 degrees F.

Recommend Zerex G-05 or Dexcool (several brands including Havoline and Prestone offer a Dexcool formulation) antifreeze. The green stuff will slowly clog up the radiator and heater core tubes due to precipitation of salts. Dexcool has a pure organic inhibitor package, which will not cause precipitation. G-05 is a "hybrid" - basically organic, but with a small dose of silicate. This hybrid has been traditionally used in Mercedes-Benz cars and is now used in all Daimler Chrysler cars.

Prior to installing G-05 throughout drain both the radiator and block (plugs on the bottom of each side about halfway between front and rear - may be covered by ignition wire shields) then remove the heater inlet hose from the inlet manifold and thoroughly flush both the engine and heater circuits with potable drinking water.

Mix the antifreeze 50/50 with distilled water, so you'll need two gallons of antifreeze and two gallons of distilled water.

Change the antifreeze and brake fluid every two to three years. Assuming you drive the car a few hundred to a few thousand miles per year change the oil once per year. If you store the car during the winter do the oil change just prior to storage.

Duke

[Theodore K.]

Re: C1 Fluids

Lenn,
Most of the comments above I agree with. I live in western Nebr and have a 1957 with high compression pistons. I disagree with the ethanol statement. I had a very serious problem with Gasahol in my 57. I have dual 4bbl. In the hot humid weather we get in the midwest, the gasahol develops serious vapor lock problems. The older cars such as C1 did not use the recirculating systems for fuel that modern cars use. Thus the fuel "cooks" under the hood in the summer, even while driving. The alcohol vaporizes in the fuel lines and vapor locks the fuel delivery system. I had a serious stalling problem on I-80 one day while cruising. Car just started slowing down and then stopped. Opening the hood, the vapor lock was discovered. When I limped to town with many stops I refilled the tank with pure 91 octane, and it was fine. Your experience may be different but be careful. I have been told that if it happens to add some auto transmission fluid to the gas and it will stop. I am sure it will smoke like crazy but at least you can get home. My best mixture is about 3 gallon of 100 octane low lead aviation gas to a tank of 91 Octane premium. There is enough lead in the avgas to give protection and will boost the overall octane. However, getting avgas is tough unless youknow someone. I also use the lead additive sold by Jack Podell and it works fine. My car does not do well on 104 booster and the others are worse yet. email me if you have other questions.

Ted von Kampen

[Verle R.]

Re: C1 Fluids

Joe,

I hope we don't start another "war" here, but I will respectfully disagree on the desirablility of Ethanol.

My disagreement is based on energy efficency.

With present technology, it takes more energy (oil) to produce ethanol than it produces, therefore must be subsidized by the government to make it cheap enough to use in gasoline.

Another problem for our cars is ethanol releases less energy than the equivalent volume of gasoline. An ethanol mixture therefore requires more volume to produce the power of gasoline (which is a mixture of petroleum distillates). In simple terms, less gas milage or less power. If you talk to any alcohol racer they can tell you the required jet sizes, but they are enormous compared to gasoline jets.

I agree the mixture is good for corn farmers but here in wheat country it doesn't help much.

Verle

[Joe L.]

Re: C1 Fluids

Ted----

If you have that much problem with the gasoline/ethanol mix, I think that you're going to be headed for some serious problem in the future. For better or for worse, ethanol is going to replace MTBE in gasoline. So, at some point, it will probably be difficult to get gas without some ethanol blend.

[Joe L.]

Re: C1 Fluids

Verle-----

I was not aware of the "energy input versus output" part of the equation or the fact that significant government susidization was involved. I'll have to look into that.

As far as the fuel value of ethanol goes, it IS lower than gasoline. However, every test that I have seen shows that there is a negligible difference in fuel mileage for straight gasoline versus a gasoline/ethanol mix with up to 15% ethanol. That doesn't seem right to me, either, but, as I say, empirical evidence is always the best.

When alcohol is used for racing, the alcohol used is almost always methanol. I don't know of any racing that uses straight ethanol, but there may be some that do. Methanol has only about half the fuel or BTU value as ethanol (methanol is a single carbon molecule and ethanol is a 2 carbon molecule). So, when using methanol it takes a lot more of it to get the job done than gasoline. Straight ethanol would require more volume than gasoline, too, but only half as much as straight methanol. Methanol is also a lot more corrosive than ethanol, so that's another problem with its use.

[Rich G.]

Re: C1 Fluids

Joe

Isn't ethanol a problem with respect to holding water in suspension? Is 15% too small an amount to worry about? This is the first winter here in the Northeast where ethanol is replacing MTBE and gas station owners are saying they have to vacuum their tanks before the first delivery to be sure there's no water.

When we use auto gas in airplanes which is legal under a special approval, we are not allowed to use fuel with ethanol because of the water issue.

BTW 100LL avgas is $3.50 a gallon at my airport, but the cars do love it!

Rich Giannotti

[Joe L.]

Re: C1 Fluids

Rich-----

Ethanol is somewhat hygroscopic (i.e. absorbs water from the atmosphere). However, that's pretty much a phenomenon of "pure" ethanol (100% ethanol is virtually impossible to manufacture due to the hygroscopicity issue). I wouldn't think that it would be much of a problem when the ethanol was blended down into gasoline. But, who knows---maybe it is a problem?

I was not aware (or I forgot) that the STC for the use of mogas in certain aircraft (for which an STC is available) restricted the use of mogas with ethanol. That will be a problem in the future for folks who can now get around the high cost of avgas by getting an STC and using mogas. Like I say, I expect that before long virtually all mogas will be blended with ethanol to one degree or another.

[Duke W.]

Re: C1 Fluids

I have documentation from Standard Oil Of CA Richmond labs that indicates typically three percent lower fuel milege for 10 percent ethanol in gasoline due to the lower heating value.

The efficacy of oxygenated gasolines is seriously questionalbe IMO. Oxygenates only have an effect, and a questionable effect at best, on modern (O2 sensor equipped) vehicles as they warm up prior to going into closed loop mode operation or pre O2 sensor vehicles, of which there are very few in service.

The oxygenate issue is driven by political considerations supported by junk science.

Duke

[Duke W.]

Re: C1 Fluids

Ethanol aborbs water and acts as a "cosolvent" in gasoline to allow more water to mix with the blend than will mix with straight run gasoline.

The "gas dry" products that are sold over-the-counter are primarily ethanol as they will allow a slug of water at the bottom of the tank to be absorbed homogeneously into the mixture and consumed by the engine.

Ethanol can be a blessing and a curse. It will allow water to mix with gasoline, but can result in more water in the gasoline when you buy it, and any dissolved water will accelerate corrosion in the fuel system.

It also alters fuel supply logistics. Gasoline oxygenated with ethanol cannot be shipped in pipelines because of the water absorbtion issue. Gasoline oxygenated with MTBE can be shipped in pipelines.

Ethanol is shipped to the distribution points in railroad tank cars and "splashed" (an industry term) into the tanker truck for deliver to the retailer.

The system depends on integrity of the ethanol from manufacturing plant to motor fuel distribution point - getting from the ethanol from the plant to the distribution point with minimal absorbtion of water, and this is bound to vary depending on your geographic location, time of year, and a lot of other variables.

Duke

[Lenn Nelsen]

Re: C1 Fluids

I've found that the reduced cost of ethanol is about equal to the decreased fuel mileage that it returns. When I drive the new Suburban around town, I use the ethanol 15% to keep green, but when I drive across country the additional mileage is very important. The new addition to the family doesn't have the computer control that the 'burb does. I appreciate the advice about how to "limp" home if necessary.