Ughh - Insurance

[Jack W.]

Re: Hagerty

couple of things on this issue and on Haggerty, from whom I have the insurance on my 65 C2 -

First, Haggerty (and some of the others) provides insurance on an "agreed-value" basis, which is different from "stated value" or "actual cash value" basis. No depreciation or mitigation will impact the amount they pay in the event of a total (like theft) loss.

Second, the "garaged when not in use" condition allows Hagerty and the others to write at a lower premium. I agreed that my 02 Avalanche would be garaged when not in use in connection with my Liberty Mutual auto insurance too (although they would have written the coverage if not garaged, there it operates as a credit to bring down the theft portion of the premium).

That does not mean that your vette must have been locked inside your garage when stolen in order to have a valid Haggerty (or toehr such insurer) theft claim. Normal use of a collector car, disclosed to include other than daily commute rides, drives to car shows, etc. will necessarily involve parking the car in a lot at some point, be it a McDonald's or otherwise. They cannot reasonably expect that every drive will begin and end in your driveway, with no stops. In my judgment (don't ask what I do, assume I have legal experience understanding and deciding insurance coverage issues) you might only run into a problem if you represented and agreed to keep you car in a locked garage at night when home, and your vette gets stolen while parked outside your home, and the adjuster visits and notices that your garage is chock-full of junk and appears to have been that way for years, or notices that you live in a trailer (no shame in that) that has no garage at all. Even then, it might be an aggressive position to deny a theft claim on that basis, but certainly not unthinkable.

As others have mentioned, it is always a good idea to obtain written confirmation of what you are told by an insurance underwriter with regard to the coverage you are purchasing. If they say something favorable on the phone, send off a confirmatory email asking if you have understood such and such correctly.

hope some of this helps, I know there is a great deal of misunderstanding and mistrust in this area.

[mike yager]

Re: Hagerty

What it says in the policy is what dictates coverages. I took a look at my policy with Hagerty. I did not see anything in it that said they would not pay a claim if the vehicle were not always attended or garaged. Only thing I saw were provisions related to racing or using the vehicle in a business.

Maybe I missed it but does anyone else that has Hagerty see any restrictions for paying a claim because the vehicle is unattened at all times or not garaged?

[Jack W.]

Re: Hagerty

as for the notion that the terms of the policy dictate coverage - that is true. All insurance coverage cases trun first and foremost on the language in the insurance contract itself.

However, you make certain represetnations when you purchase insurance (you buy life insurance, you represent that you do not smoke) and the premium or the insurance company's willingness to insure you in the first instance is based upon your representations (answers to the questions asked in the application). If it turns out that you made a MATERIAL misrepresentation (you were a two-pack a day smoker and you up and died two months into that life insurance policy) then the insurance company can try to rescind the policy based upon such material misrepresentation - in that case they will return the premium you have paid and say - no policy. Not no coverage for you claim, but no policy. Same impact, although you will have some premium returned to you in the latter scenario.

[Terry D.]

Re: Hagerty

Try calling Hagerty, it's an 800 number and ask them if you stop at the mall on the way home from your Sunday afternoon cruise and the car gets stolrn if it is covered. I have asked several of the "Classic Car" insurers this question and only two told me it would be insured, Hagerty and Grundy were not among those two.

Terry

[Terry D.]

Re: Hagerty

As I stated inan earlier post, it's real simply to find out. Call your insurance company, ask them to explain when your car is not covered. Only takes a minute. I think most of you will be a little surprised at what is and what isn't covered by "Classic Car" insurance. I know I was!

Terry

[Mark F.]

State Farm insures my '65 driver

I insured my '65 Corvette driver as an "antique" with a stated amount value of $30K for full coverage for less than $300 a year with State Farm. Why is it so cheap? I live in North Idaho, where rates are much cheaper than my former home of California. With such a policy, I am not permitted to suspend coverage during the winter months (it was 24 degrees below zero here Sunday night, not a good night for a top-down drive!). I don't complain about not being able to suspend coverage; it's a bargain.

Mark

[Tom Freeman]

Re: State Farm insures my '65 driver

Mark,
I ran your numbers through the Hagerty on line quote and got a quote of $232/yr with no deductable.
tom...

[Mike Yager]

Re: Hagerty

Terry:

No matter what you are told on the phone or what is on a web site, the policy dictates coverage. As Jack pointed out, reasonable use without misrepresentation is Ok.

It would be unreasonable to have a policy where someone was be with the card every second - no matter if you go to the mall or stop by a friend's house after work. On the other hand, if the insurance company discovers that you work at the mall or live with your friend because you may be seperated from your spouse, these would be material misrepresentations.

Likewise, you cannot expect someone that is at a car show overnight to not stay in a hotel. However, if they take the car on vacation, that may be a problem.

Companies like Hagerty have policies specific for classic cars and the manner in which they are normally used. As long as I follow their normal use guidelines and am not making any misrepresentations, I am covered according to the policy. These companies have a healthy business catering to the collector/classic car market. They would not be in business long if their restrictions made use of the car impractical. Its up to you but I think you are worrying about something that does not exist.

[Terry D.]

Re: Hagerty

Mike

I guess the key here is whose definition of reasonable and normal use you use. I for one do not want to rely on some insurance companies attorney for the definition of reasonable and normal. I understand Hagerty's position, they want to insure trailor queens. I on the other hand prefer to drive my car as much as possible, therefore I am more than willing to pay the extra couple hundred dollars to a company who lets me go for a drive, park my car to go into the store and not have to worry about the fine print. I am not getting down on Hagerty or Grundy or the rest of them, I was just surprised at the limits of their coverage. I have used Hagerty to insure my antique Chris Craft's for years, that's why I first went to them for classic car insurance, there is no unattended clause on their boat policies.
In the end you are right, it is up to me and I have made my choice. If you are comfortable with an unattended clause then by no means should you change insurance companies. The question I asked myself was, is it worth saving two hundred dollars a year to wonder if, when and where I was allowed to park my car? I guess that's what makes this country so great, we all have choices we can make.

Terry

[Lenn #40977]

Re: Hagerty

Follow-Up from my earlier research.
I go an e-mail back from Sneed and they will insure an "unattended" car, but their rates are over $600/month on a $50,000 agreed value. Hagerty and others are well under $300 for the same value, but they will not guarantee their coverage on "unattended" cars. When I called (very subjective and not in writing) they were very cautious about what might be defined as unattended. Overnight at a motel parking lot is definitely "unattended" (read about most thieved collector car in previous post). Stopping for a burger on the way home from a car event may or may not be depending....

So, I've found my answer, but do I want to pay the premium. Hmmmm, more decisions.

Thanks to all for the help

[Terry D.]

Re: Hagerty

Lenn
There has to be a mistake, or you got one heck of a driving record. Mine thru them is $488.00 a YEAR for $40,000.00 coverage. Better do some more research.

Terry

[Jack W.]

Re: Hagerty

Terry - Unless you know where you and Lenn both live, and your respective ages, your premium rate comparison cannot be made as those two facotrs impact mightilly on this calculation.

ouch, I just noticed I got slammed for providing an insurance company attorney's "insider" views. I guess I got used to that long ago, goes with the job. No harm no foul.

I am not aware fo the "unattended" clause that has been referred to - if this is contained in the policy issued by Haggery (on CNA paper, by the way, know that Haggerty itself is not an insurance company, they run/manage a PROGRAM and issue an insurance company's policies on that company's behalf) then I would be interested in looking at it - unless my views (I was, at one point, the guy that advised insurance companies on whether they should deny such and such a claim based on a coverage issue or a misrepresentation) are unwelcome. Just trying to add some value here.

[Lenn #40977]

Re: Hagerty

Concur. Insured amount, driving record, marital status, age, zip Code, home ownership, and don't forget credit rating. Yes, even your credit rating can affect your insurance premium.

Now, back to Terry--I said $50k worth of agreed value. If the agreed value were at the $40k level, the premium would drop back to well below the $500 mark. The premiums are based on value per thousand dollars.

Go to the Hagery web site >>>http://www.hagerty.com/NewsManager/t...d=59&zoneid=21 and you'll see the FAQ:
Q. What are Hagerty's garage requirements?
A. Vehicles must be stored in a locked garage when not in use.

Also...

"Vehicles insured on our program must be used on a limited basis consistent with the operation of something valuable, such as club functions, exhibitions, organized meets, tours, and limited pleasure driving."

And...

The Chevrolet Corvette (1966-1982) was named the number one stolen collector vehicle in a recent study conducted by the Hagerty Protection Network between July 1999 through December 2002.
>>>http://www.hagerty.com/NewsManager/t...d=220&zoneid=6

Finally, based on a segment on "Two Guys Garage" where they had a Hagerty rep, he also reiterated in that the car must not be unattended. He stated the car "must be stored in a locked garage when not in use" which means that anything elseby default,is an exclusion and, therefore, not covered by the contract.

Bottom Line: Folks, we need to read our contracts and do our homework to determine what we want. I've found classic car insurance (e.g. Sneed) can be purchased that will insure my sweety unattended, but I will have to pay the premium. In this case more than double what the other companies (Hagerty, Grundy, etc) are charging.

Boy, oh boy have I learned a lot in this segment. Thanks to everyone for their help.

[Jack W.]

Re: Hagerty

I promise to let it after this, but since you keep putting some quasi-correct info out there (no offense meant, this is legal stuff here), and this IS what I DO for a living after all, I feel the need to clear this up to provide some info to those around here who have given me so much help with what THEY know - plus I am now home and have my Haggerty-produced "Classic Car Insurance Policy" form from CNA in front of me (that is the contract we look to to determine the grant/scope of coverage, conditions to coverage, and exclusions from coverage, not what some guy said on a TV show - no way can any such limiting comments be made a part of my or your insurance contract.

Now, those with insurance from Haggerty, read along here. Since we are talking about theft claims, we are focusing on Part D of the policy - "Coverage For Damage to Your Coveraged Auto". Here we see the grant of coverage, described as [note that terms in quotes are defined]:

"We will pay for direct and accidental loss to "your covered auto" including its "equipment", minus any applicable deductible shown in the Declarations, when such loss is caused by: 1. "Other than collision" only if the Declarations indicates that Other Than Collision Coverage" is provided for that auto . . ."

The phrase "Other Than Collision" is defined to include:

"loss to "your covered auto" caused by missiles or falling objects, fire, THEFT or larceny; explosion or earthquake; windtorm, hail, water or flood; malicious mischief or vandalism; riot or civil commotion . . . [you get the idea]

There is a section of Exclusions relevant to Coverage D, but there is no such "theft of vehicle while parked anywhere besides your garage" exclusion. Another place to look for this notion would be in the general conditions applicable to all coverage parts of the policy; such is where we find the requirement that the insured always own a "regular use vehicle" to ensure that the classic car is not your primary daily driver. But that's it, no condition that the car always be kept in your own garage.

SOOOOOO, if my Haggerty/CNA-insured Vette was stolen from the Motel 6 lot, I would certainly NOT get a denial of coverage for the theft claim based on any policy provision regarding some requirement that the car be stolen from my garage, because none such exists. That is the contract between me and CNA. CNA or Haggerty is not free to make a statement changing or restricting the scope of coverage under MY policy - these policy forms are filed and approved by your state insurance department. Like I said waaay up above, if you were in eggregious breach of some representation you made in your application about having a garage space available for normal safekeeping of the vette while home, you might see some sort of rescission action, but those are really quite rare. Alternatively, if you were found to have been driving cross-country when you vette was stolen, they might invoke the "antique vehicle" or "classic vehicle" defintions on you and assert that such car was not "maintained primarily for use in car club activities, exhibitions, parades, other functions of pubic interest or for a private collection" but even there you get "and used infrequently for other purposes".

Long-winded discussion made short, Haggerty wants you to have a gargae spot for your car, and not leave it outside every night - this allows them to quote a reduced premium for you because you have reduced your theft exposure. But, in my professional opinion (look me up on Martindale Hubbel if you want) you will be covered for a theft loss of your vehicle even if it is not taken from your home's garage. If any one of us gets his Haggerty-insured vette stolen while such car is not safely in the owner's garage, and Haggerty denies that theft claim on THAT basis, write to me personally and we can take it up with your state insurance department, no charge - you would have a winner of a complaint there. And CNA would get tagged for a bad faith claims handling practice. But I pretty much doubt it.

[Mike Yager]

Re: Hagerty

Jack:

Thanks for the thorough and legal opinion on this as some may have been worried by some of the discussion here. I am not a lawyer but this is exactly what I have read in my policy. There are no exceptions indicted if it is stolen and it is the policy that dictates coverage. As with any insurance that you purchase, if misrepresentations are made then there is the possibility that a claim can be denied.

As I said