Use of 110 Octane Leaded in 327

[Duke W.]

Re: A little gas trivia

Yes, just to review for everyone the "octane rating" of a fuel is its detonation resistance compared to a blend of iso-octane and normal heptane. A fuel that exhibits the same knock resistance as a blend of 80 percent iso-octane and 20 percent normal heptane is rated "80 octane". Once you find a blend that is more resistant to detonation than 100 percent iso-octane, it is compared to 100 percent iso-octane with a specified quantity of TEL per gallon. I can't remember the details but 101 octane would be equivalent to 1 cc/gal or, 102 to 2 cc/gal - something like that. Above the 100 octane level the scale is highly non linear.

Add to the confusion that there are two test methodologies for automotive use, Motor Method and Research Method. The Motor Method is more severe and is most applicable to high load applications such as trucks and race cars. The Reseach method is less severe and probably more applicable to typical passenger car use..

When EPA proposed the all pumps be posted with an octane number, they couldn't decide which to use. In the sixties, gas stations that displayed octane number used the RON. EPA decided to used the arithmetic average, and the difference between RON and MON averages about 8-10, so you add 4-5 to compare today's PON to the sixties RON.

Aircraft octane rating is measured using different methods that were develoed in the thirties and forties as aircraft engine performance increased and high boost became common. The dual rating (like 100/130 and 115/145) applied to low boost lean mixtures/high boost rich mixtures. Modern avgas has gone back to single ratings since few high boost reciprocating engines are still in service, but the aircraft rating system is more severe and is probably most comparable to MON (but not exactly the same), since aricraft engines normally operate at high load.

Duke

[Clem Z.]

duke i thought that the "truck" designation

come from having a flat floor area because that is how the little D/C PT crusier is classified as a truck for CAFE purpose. i alway understood that GM pushed for the cat convertor because it was the easy way out for them rather than redesign their engines.

[Duke W.]

Re: duke i thought that the "truck" designation

The rules/regulations that distinguish a "truck" from a "car" are archane, but I think "flat load floor" has something to do with it, and John H. might be able to fill in some more details.

Whatever the wording, the intent has been abused. Detroit loves it and Congress won't touch it for fear of the political backlash from their constiuents.

GM was between the proverbial rock and hard place circa 1970 when faced with the proposed 1975 standards. So was every other OEM. Redesigning all the engines would not have done the job as emissions could not be controlled purely internally. They knew that "aftertreatment" would be required no matter what. The decision was prescient as catalysts are now industry standard. Other approaches such as thermal reactors (Mazda, Porsche) and pure internal redesigns (Honda's CVCC) were eventually abondoned in favor of external catalysts.

The technology that allowed the return of high output with better fuel economy was the O2 sensor with electonic fuel flow control developed by Bosch. I think the first (or one of the first) "Lambda Systems" installed on a US spec car was a '79 Saab Turbo. By the late eighties electronic fuel control with O2 sensor feedback was nearly universal.

Dave McClellan recounts the difficulty of meeting emission standards on seventies vintage Corvettes. He said the Bosch technology was off base, but didn't explain why - probably some kind of political problem - so they had to wrestle with carburetors way too long. Then GM thought TBI would do the job,. but it really didn't and was just an interim solution. GM didn't catch up across the board until the early nineties.

[Clem Z.]

seems to me GM spent a lot of money

screwing around with those computer controled carbs and throttle bodies when they could have went to TPI sooner. even going to the directly TBI instead of those expensive carbs. those carbs cost 3-4 times as much as a TBI

[Duke W.]

Re: seems to me GM spent a lot of money

I agree. They apparently thought they could beat the emissions boggyman with something cheaper than port injection, but they bet wrong.

Duke

[Clare Carpenter]

GM is taking hybreds very seriously

I just returned from the International Auto Show in Detroit, (the new C6 Corvette looks better "in-person" than in two dimensional photos) and I can tell you that GM's tech display show a firm commitment to hybred technology. They had a full dynomometer set up to display their DOD (displacment on demand) technology and ran a series of pulls including WOT. Very impressive and cool to see. This V8 gasoline engine will be available very soon in trucks and will yield a 15-20% increase in mileage, with no give up in power or torque when needed. They are also concentrating on hybred vehicles incorporating fuel cell technology but for buses first because that is where they can make the biggest impact vs. cars on fuel savings and emissions.

They had the Saturn Ion land speed record vehicle there, 220+ MPH, set with the Eco-tech 4 cyl engine; running on methane and supercharged it puts out more than 700HP. This same engine in dragstrip trim puts out more than 1000HP. They also had a very cool modern interpretation of the P51 style belly tankers, which hasn't run yet but will be going for a new land speed record in that class with the Eco-tech engine.

[Terry M.]

Saturn Class G Bonneville record

That Saturn Ion Bonneville Class G speed record vehicle - 220+ MPH, set with the Eco-tech 4 cyl engine - was driven by Jim Minneker. C4 enthusiasts will remember him as power train chief during the LT5 time frame. Jim also drove a Corvette in several One Lap of America races. He should now be a member of the 200 Mile per Hour Club.

[Chuck S.]

Re: GM is taking hybreds very seriously

Clare, perhaps they are "thinking real hard" about hybrids. That's really the purpose of auto shows anyway..."You should buy our stuff because we are thinking hard and smart".

A FIRM COMMITMENT is when you commit to manufacturing and marketing a vehicle, and that may be in GM's plans. All I know is that I could buy a "Prius" this summer if I wanted one, but there is no such vehicle at my Chevy dealer. At an MSRP of $20,510 for a four door mid-size vehicle, 55mpg, and 90% reduction in emissions, I expect a few tree-huggers in California and even others might be interested.

Maybe the General is letting another company gamble their capital to test the market waters, and are waiting to see how many people really want a hybrid. There is, however, a danger in ignoring or dismissing the competition as irrelevant.

Detroit made the mistake of ignoring the competition before only to see the ball bounce in favor of imports, and they have subsequently watched their market share steadily decline.

[Terry M.]

New Prius availibility

"All I know is that I could buy a "Prius" this summer if I wanted one."

I doubt that Chuck. My understanding is that all new Prius production is pre-sold to current Prius owners. I am told, by a Prius owner, that the goal is for them to get back all the old models. It is unclear if the older ones are to be resold. At this time he si still waiting for his new Prius,a and driving the old one.

[Chuck S.]

Re: New Prius availibility

Terry, that may be true.

I was going on what the Toyota website seemed to be saying by providing specifications and pricing apparently for the general public. I couldn't find it when I went back, but I thought the website said the Prius would be be available in the summmer; your friend is waiting for one now. Perhaps the early production is dedicated to getting their test cars back for study. If their production is to be limited to a small quantity of test prototypes, it seems like the exchange would be handled by direct mail rather than build a website.

It is possible their marketing is getting out in front of their manufacturing and engineering. Note that this website is also saying the Highlander will be available as a hybrid in 2005...for those that want a "greener" SUV.




Build Your Own Prius

[Terry M.]

Re: New Prius availibility

You could be right, and/or they could have increased production. Their web site could be out there to get them exposure, and use the number of hits to gauge public interest - a marketing tool even though they have nothing to sell for now. All I know is what he told me, and what I read in a newspaper review. Those two sources agreed in stating that Toyota offered the second year Prius production to current owners, and they wanted the first year's units back. The newspaper article stated that the current owners were going to take the entire years production - kind of like the Viper last year. Neither of those sources are infallible, and plans can change.
We had his car in the auto shop for a few days - we have an alternate fuels program - and I wouldn't want to have one fail very far from a Toyota dealership, but then there are some other new cars that I can say the same about - just different brand. I saw several Escape hybrids on the street around Cobo Hall last week - just to add fuel to the fire.

[Clem Z.]

DOD is the way to go

the DOD on pickup trucks makes more sense than getting more milage out of a small car that already get good milage. the total MPG for a small car looks impressive in the ads but the real fuel savings comes from getting better fuel milage on larger vehicles.

[Clem Z.]

Re: New Prius availibility

they want to get them back before the owners need to pay $4000 for new batteries. that would not be very good publicity

[Chuck S.]

Re: DOD is the way to go

Provided Leroy isn't going down the highway by himself with an empty bed (except for those empty beer cans )...fuel savings result from more passenger-miles per vehicle. You'll never get those Pennsylvanians to ride in the back "wetback style" this time of year.

Besides, fuel savings is a problem for the government to solve. The General needs to be interested is selling personal vehicles...that's what the market is going to want until the government forces the issue, and that's where the money is for now.

[Bryan L.]

Re: A little gas trivia

Thanks for the clarification on the numbers and the color of the gas. CRS these days anyway and all of this happened 20+ years ago, plus I drank a lot in those days. I worked for a small outfit in Houston in 1985-86 called Proformance Fuels that blended racing gasoline. We had 96 octane unleaded, and 100 and 105 leaded racing gas. They mixed 55 gallon drums of purple gas for the Confederate Air Force guys.

BL