63-65 FI "facts" - NCRS Discussion Boards

63-65 FI "facts"

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  • Duke W.
    Beyond Control Poster
    • January 1, 1993
    • 15610

    63-65 FI "facts"

    First, a big thanks to Paul Vanderpot and Mike McCagh for responding to my request for info late last week. Paul took a bunch of tape measurments, and Mike took both tape measurements and measured runner volume, which is a good input for the Engine Analyser simluation program to compute equivalent round runner diameter. WHAT A GUY!!!

    And the results?!

    Plenum volume works out to around 350 cubic inches. From a practical standpoint consider it equal to engine displacement, which is very generous. The FI manifold is essentially a "tunnel ram", but doesn't suffer from the fuel distribution problems that tunnel rams with carbs suffer at less than WOT and high revs. It's measureably more efficient than any reasonably streetable manifold and carburetor combination.

    Equivalent round section runner diameter works out to about 1.8" for the FI manifold versus 1.6" for a good four barrel manifold. The head is also about 1.6" - average equivalent round port. The FI manifold's generous plenum and large and straight runners represent very little of the inlet system's overall restriction. The FI manifold runner length (including the adapter) is close to 6.0" - about the same as a typical four-barrel carb manifold, which yields a total inlet passage length to the valve of about 11" with either system.

    I've never seen first hand flow data for the air meter, but anecdotal evidence indicates about 600 CFM @ 1.5" Hg. Jim Gessner told me that a modified air meter he had on a vintage racer flowed 750. I used 600 for FI and 585 for the carb.

    So what, you say?! Well, there's that age old controversy: Does FI really make more power than its SHP cousins with a carb, and if so, how much?

    Plugging this data into the Engine Analyser simulation program yields some interesting results. The long block is a 30 over 327 with 10.5:1 CR (real, not GM's marketing number) forged pistons at .003" clearance, windage tray, and LT-1 cam, topped with reworked heads with flow numbers as published in Vizard's book and 2.5" cast iron exhaust manfolds. I looked at net power so the engine has a clutch fan and water pump and a good exhaust system that doesn't create more than about three psi backpressure at peak revs and SAE net atmospheric conditions.

    I hate to quote numbers because the relative differences are more important than the actual computed numbers, but let me put it this way: With a well massaged set of OE heads, a SHP engine is not that far behind the modern LS1 and FI will get you partway to a LS6, so GM's higher ratings for FI are probably reasonable, except '64 - '65. More on this later.

    To be fair to the modern engines, their 80 or 90 percent torque bandwidth extends much lower, so the vintage SHP/FI engines are well behind in stump pulling low end torque, particularly FI because it is essentially a 360 degree or "single plane" manifold (as is a tunnel ram) that does not have the favorable low rev wave dynamics that help 180 degree "dual plane" manifolds make good low end torque.

    One "fact" that is very important to keep in mind is that these engines are limited by the HEADS - not the carb or inlet manifold, not the FI system, not the cast iron exhaust manifolds, and definitely not the LT-1 cam. Also, it is very important to do everything possible to minimize exhaust back pressure, and the OE 2.5" exhaust with a set of low restriction mufflers should meet this requirement.

    Another important conclusion: As head flow improves, the relative advantage of FI becomes GREATER, at least as far as upper rev range power is concerned. With OE unmodified heads the difference is not that great, but the FI will pull a greater percentage increase in the upper rev range as the heads are improved.

    I suspect that the modest 10 HP advertised rating difference for '64-'65 SHP/FI engines was part of the "conspiracy" to kill FI. The big block was in the pipeline, and I'm sure GM was losing money on every FI system it built by that time, and I even suspect they may have lost money on every FI system they built since '57. The approximate $400 premium that FI cost in its last two years versus its carbureted SHP cousin probably steered a lot of potential L-84 buyers to L-76, and the production quantities support this conclusion.

    Regardless of whether you're a carb or FI guy, these engine, with massaged OE heads and the LT-1 cam are damned impressive for 35-40 year old technology. Chevrolet Engineering understood the strengths and weaknesses of the heads very well by the late sixties, and the rather unusual LT-1 cam timing mitigates the heads' biggest weakness which is exhaust flow.

    Duke
  • Dave Suesz

    #2
    fi and fuel economy...

    I well remember a rally in my area when I was a kid, the guy who took top economy honors had a fi car and turned in 31 mpg over the course. People forget how good the mileage of the fi cars was. Notice almost all cars built today have it?

    A note on cubic inches: In 1967, Ford added the 390GT to the engines available in the Mustang, in answer to the 396 Camaro/400 Firebird. It wasn't quite up to the job at the drags, but it did manage to kill the 289HP engine, which sold less that 300 units that year, even though it was a superior engine. 'Course the 289HP was slapped with a 3 month warranty, 'cause Ford knew it did a lotta racing, and they weren't interested in providing factory warranty support for weekend racers.

    Comment

    • Gene M.
      Extremely Frequent Poster
      • April 1, 1985
      • 4232

      #3

      Comment

      • Duke W.
        Beyond Control Poster
        • January 1, 1993
        • 15610

        #4
        Re: 63-65 FI "facts"

        This comparison is just FI versus carb. Everything else is the same, so with the same cam - whatever that cam is - FI will not make as much low end torque as a carb.

        The LT-1 cam is not too big. The .050" lifter rise 242/254 duration numbers aren't comparable to a hydraulic cam because a lot of the LT-1s .050" lifter rise duration is clearance ramp.

        If you want to compare .050" lifter rise duration of hydraulic cam to a mechanical lifter cam you have to subtract 10-20 degees from the mechanical lifter cam to get close to an apples to apples comparison. The larger the clearance the more you have to subtract, so the LT-1 cam would roughly compare to a hyraulic cam of 226/234 .050" lifter rise duration. The LT-1 cam probably has less effective overlap than the Comp 270. The extra exhaust duration is all at the front end, and the early opening exhaust is one of the "secrets" of the LT-1 cam. It mitigates the small block's restrictive exhaust port. The inlet lobe is similar to the Duntov with a few degrees extra duration at the back end - the inlet valve closes a little later, so it is effectively phased a little later.

        The Comp 270 has just marginally more duration than the L-79 cam, but narrower lobe centers, which yields too much overlap that will hurt low end torque and doesn't help top end power with OE exhaust manifolds. You would be better off with the L-79 cam, The LT-1 cam will make more top end power than either, but only marginally less torque than the L-79, and the LT-1 cam yields greater wider torque bandwidth.

        I've never tested a cam on a simulation program that beats the LT-1 in terms of overall torque bandwidth and peak power. There are plenty of cams that make more peak power, but they kill low end torque bandwidth. The toughest part of the LT-1 cam is trying to characterize it for a simulation program. None of the published LT-1 timing data will give results that make any sense. The timing data I use is from the lift-crank angle diagram that I measured directly off a new LT-1 cam.

        The only area where aftermarket cams beat the 35-40 year old Chevrolet designs, and they literally bury the OE designs, is advertising expenditure.

        Duke

        Comment

        • Duke W.
          Beyond Control Poster
          • January 1, 1993
          • 15610

          #5
          Re: fi and fuel economy...

          A spark ignition engine makes best power at an air-fuel ratio of about 12:5:1, which is 20 percent excess fuel and best economy at 15.5:1, which is 10 percent excess air, but due to mixture distribution issues a carb has to be run richer on average at cruise so the leanest cylinder doesn't get into lean misfire.

          Because FI has very close to even fuel distribution it can be run leaner and should, on average, achieve about 5 to 10 percent better fuel economy that a L-76 with the same gearing and driving conditions. At steady cruise, a well tuned FI engine could achieve as much as 20 percent better fuel ecomony.

          Modern cars maintain A/F ratio at stoichiometric - about 14.7:1 under all operating conditions other than WOT. They are giving away five to ten percent in fuel ecomony, but they can't run 15.5:1 because NOx would go through the roof, and three way catalytic converters would not work properly because they require the exhaust gas constituency of the stoichiometric ratio to simultaneously oxidize HC and CO and disassociate NOx.

          Duke

          Comment

          • floyd dossey

            #6
            Re: 63-65 FI "facts"

            Duke,
            Years ago I read an article in a magazine that the flow data for the air meter was about 600 CFM @ 1.5" Hg. Great information.

            Thanks
            Floyd
            65 Fuelie

            Comment

            • Clem Z.
              Expired
              • January 1, 2006
              • 9427

              #7
              Re: 63-65 FI "facts"

              duke since the heads are the HP killer did you try any of the other SBC heads listed in the programs files?

              Comment

              • Duke W.
                Beyond Control Poster
                • January 1, 1993
                • 15610

                #8
                Re: 63-65 FI "facts"

                No, I just used the data in Vizards book for both unmodified and modified heads and that showed the trend.

                Since mixture distribution and fuel evaporization is not the issue it is with a carb, FI could probably used very large port heads for more top end power without ill-effect, but one weakness of the Rochester FI is so-so fuel atomization at idle and low revs because pressure is low.

                Pulsed solenoid type injectors used on modern EFI engines have good injector atomization at idle, so they can use large port heads. I think the LS1/6 heads have about a 220 cc ports out of the box.

                Duke

                Comment

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