Engine Restamping

[Mark #28455]

It always interests me to see the number of comments this topic brings up, even if an engine is restamped to restore a documented original car that came with that engine. However, the NCRS even offers courses at the national convention to teach how to make non-original enamel paint "look like" lacquer (after all, lacquer just isn't obtainable in many parts of the country). In addition, many of those who gripe the loudest have top flight "restored" their cars with complete non-original interiors from Al Knoch and other suppliers. I think we should be more consistent! NON-ORIGINAL PARTS ARE JUST THAT - non-original, regardless of where on the car they are used! If we are going to teach how to fake a paint job, maybe we should also teach how to correctly fake broach marks and factory stampings (to help correct the damage that Bubba has done to many cars).
The biggest problem with restamped blocks occurs when a bogus 1967 435HP car is made from another car and sold to some unsuspecting sap at full price, or if a car is restored with a restamped motor and then sold as having the original motor at full price. It's all about FRAUD. Maybe if there were less stigma attached to restamped motors, we could even keep a database of them to prevent fraud, or owners of cars with known restamped motors would be willing to admit this when selling the car.
By the way, how many L88's REALLY have their original motors? You tell me! Remember, the original owner of an L88 paid a LOT of money to have the fastest car around and probably raced it more than once. I was involved in the speed industry in the late 70's and early 80's and I can guarantee you that we decked just about every motor we built for racing and nobody ever worried about the broach marks or the stamping.

[Joe C.]

Re: Engine Restamping

Mark:

I agree with you. But, don't you see. We have to have a mechanism whereby we protect those owners whose cars already skated thru before certain judging techniques were "perfected".
All 1967's are 427/435 cars? Too many L88's out there? If many of those Duntov specimens were re judged using the latest techniques, wonder how many would now be Second Flight cars.
Now, not another word about this. Let's let sleeping dogs lie.

[Charlie P.]

Re: Engine Restamping

I guess there is something magical or mystical about a car having THE originally installed engine, and I can appreciate that. More importantly, other than legitimate documentation in the form of tank sticker, window sticker, p-o-p, etc, it may serve as the only evidence that the car is was it is claimed to be. However, beyond the engine (and maybe transmission), and lacking documentation, there is almost no way to know what a car's original equipment and option configuration was. So it seems we only have engine originality to cling to for the purpose of establishing what factory-built car we are looking at, but only to the extent of verifying engine/transmission configuration.

BUT- Assuming that NCRS judges can indisputably determine the authenticity of an engine stamping, there is still now way of knowing if the rest of the car came with the engine! Even if all NOS or factory parts are used, car could have a complete non-original chassis, (if VIN stamps are not judged),interior, and even body (if new trim tag and VIN plate rivets are undectable). I am not talking about fake tags and plates- I am referring to the rebuild of a wrecked rust bucket.

I venture to guess that there are top show cars out there that have matching trim tag, VIN plate, engine and transmission, period. And only a handful of people know anything about the origin or original configuration of the rest of the car.

I fully agree that, even if we can't prove other aspects of original configuration, not having THE original engine and trans should be a points deduct. Further to this, my suggestion would be an "Elite" attachment to a Flight award for a car documented and judged to have engine, transmission, center-section body, frame, and options as built as a unit at the factory. So this level of judging would be Flight judging that requires tank or window sticker and frame VIN verfication, at least.

[Michael W.]

How about all of you take some judging classes,

read up on what the NCRS flight judging program is all about, and maybe even show up at a meet to find out how it really works.

Once you've done of all of that, you'll realise that most of the comments and preconceived ideas above are way off the mark.

This same thread pops up every few weeks or months (about as often as the 'where's my driveline') and is an equal waste of server space.

Please learn what it's all about before ripping it apart.

[Warren F.]

Re: How about all of you take some judging classes

I have been thru the flight judging process.

Charlie, makes valid points. Mark, makes valid points.

I stated before, that if you're going to judge these cars, the judging should be as complete as possible. It's one of the better systems out there, it could be even be better. Since transmission and frame carry the vin # they should be important enough to be included (I understand it's difficult to do on a judging field).

As far as originality goes, I admire and respect those that had the insight to preserve as much as possible and I really appreciate that NCRS has adopted the Bow Tie format as an important function of this organization.

[Chuck S.]

"Bubble, Bubble, Toil and Trouble"...

"Fillet of a fenny snake,

In the cauldron boil and bake:

eye of newt and toe of frog,

Wool of bat and tongue of dog,

Adder's fork and blind-worm's sting,

Lizard's leg and howlet's wing,

for a charm of pow'rful trouble,

Like a hell-broth boil and bubble."

Second Witch, "Macbeth", Act IV, Scene 1

[Sydney G.]

Re: Engine Restamping

If Bubba messed up the block's pad in your ride, if you are not changing the block itself with a new one to replace what is pretty much obvious the original, if you are not out for self greed, if you are documenting this as part of the restoration, if you are not increasing horsepower, not committing fraud, not fabricating a 435 but only putting back what was originally there.......then.......wake up those dogs!
Before embarking, (not a pun!), if the cast date is correct, heads correct, history matches etc., what would stop you during engine rebuild from correcting what Bubba decked as he ate his donut? How could you not consider?
Many say leave it as is. It's only so many points. You can achieve top flight just the same. Many also say restore to as the day it sat on the showroom floor.
No, I don't mean wrecking original broach marks on a vintage original replacement block!
I know, if, if , if.
But it could be so, and many times is the case!
Just adding a little fuel to the fire! It' still cold up here and the Vette has to stay warm for another month!
Syd

[Michael S.]

Re: Engine Restamping

Given the suspision associted with "MOST" 435HP cars concerning their real heritage, why restore one at all? Drive one any amount of time and you surely will not want one. They are awful driving cars in traffic! Spending all that money to acquire one or restore one is kinda like the wanting the best looking stripper at the nudy bar, everyone lust's after her but given a little time to think about it, you always wonder who did what to her first before you got there! I guess it's the "ego" associated with a 435HP car and the trophy woman at your side.

Why 435HP cars bring more than a 400HP, 390HP or 350HP car amazes me. These three engines make a 67 Corvette a MUCH better car and you can get ALL the good options. Of course "I" still think a coupe is a much better car and should bring more money than a convertible.

L-88's are in a world of their own. They "should" bring the big bucks, OM or not!

Restamping an engine "generally" starts with good intentions by the owner, to make the car correct appearing for judging or whatever. However nothing is forever and the car you "stamp" today is the car you WILL sell tomorrow. The fact that the engine was "stamped" always is forgotten. It may not be during the first or second sale however it IS forgotten at some point. Is this fraud? Who perpertrated the fraud? The guy who stamped it? The guy who knew it was stamped and sold it as original? Lot's of luck making those stick. Restamping is ALL ABOUT THE MONEY! It makes the car worth more money to more people because it's numbers matching! Good intentions in the begining by a person still does not make right.

Get over the "original engine/matching numbers" crap and enjoy your car for purpose you purchased the car. If it's judging, GREAT! Buy that type of car. If it's EGO, buy a 435HP. Whatever your reason, LEARN about Corvettes. Become a student and really find out what makes a car correct for your intended use. Restamping/fraud will stop when we no longer have "DUMB/STUPID/UNEDUCATED" buyers. Wealth and the ability to afford a 67 Corvette never meant the buyer had any brains! There are lot's of buyers with money and no knowledge. That's the buyers fault!

I guess restamping will be with us a long time!!!!!

Mike
#11202

[Michael W.]

Yes, they make valid points, but not applicable

to Flight Judging.

I frequently see the words 'authenticate', 'verify', 'certify','documented' etc. thrown around as though the purpose of flight judging was to pronounce a given car 'real' or not.

Perhaps some day some organisation will create an 'authentication' process whereby a team of accredited, professional evaluators will certify that a car has all it's original bits and guarantee that it originally came off the assembly line exactly as presented.

I don't know if there enough people alive today that are both knowledgeable and brave enough to sign up to something like that.