Hi Guys, Can anyone please help me on this? I'm looking to purchase a 65 vet. The owner claims it is all orig. but I'm stuck on one thing.The car is vin # 16,550.The body build date is I20,which is April 20. It's an AO Smith body.In my ncrs guide, this vin # comes later than the last body built for April. It's about 40 cars too late. Is this at all possible? All the other numbers are ok I think. The block cast date is Nov.17,1964. The engine pad reads Feb 11.Is this block too early for this car or does it fall within limits? Any help is deeply appreciated!!
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Re: 1965 ending vehicle number question
Smells like something is wrong. Look at the tags under the glovebox and look to see if they have been altered. As another test, if you have Nolans book, look at page 312. I did not see any 65's in the 14800 to 17000 range with a block cast date prior to February. What is the vin# on the engine pad?
Harry
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Re: 1965 ending vehicle number question
Hi Harry, thanks for your assistance. The vin # is 194675s116550.....car number 16,550.I don't have the noland Adams book, so any more help is great!! Thanks.. JoeComment
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Re: 1965 ending vehicle number question
Is the 16550 on the engine pad?
HarryComment
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Re: 1965 ending vehicle number question
The engine pad reads...5116550 F02IIHH. Block is 3782870. Block cast date is K174(Nov. 17 1964). Body A-5502. Body build date code I20(April 20).This is all the info I have. Trans also has same vin number stamped into it.Comment
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Re: 1965 ending vehicle number question
If the engine pad, trans, vin tag and frame all have 16550 then it looks OK from those numbers. The HH is a nice 365 hp engine. Others need to comment on the birthday, build date question.
Good luck
HarryComment
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Re: 1965 ending vehicle number question
For what it's worth, I see that Production number 16550 equates with a May 3, 1965 "birthday" (think of the car rolling off of the line, all done). The body time built build date per the trim tag - yours reads "I20" (in 65, that April 20, for both St. Louis and A.O. Smith) is not the date when the car came off the line fully assembled (see birthday above) but rather the date the body itself was assembled. Yours make sense - body assmebled at A.O. Smith on April 20, engine installed and she comes off the line on May 3, 1965.
Now that engine block cast date - Nov 17 1964 - and then followed by the engine assmebly date of Feb 11 and finally the birthday of May 3 - is a much fatter time frame than my own 1965 with the same HH engine and A.O. Smith body, but reasons for such exist.65 MM Convertible, L76 (365 hp)Comment
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Re: 1965 ending vehicle number question
Hey Jack, thanks for the reply. So in your opinion, you think the car is legit? Thanks... JoeComment
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Re: 1965 ending vehicle number question
gert someone who is broach-mark knowledgable to check the pad on this one as the interval between cast date, assemble date of engine and build date of car are rather excessive. possible, but unlikely . mikeComment
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Re: 1965 ending vehicle number question
my opinion is worth little on that matter (is this really the original engine?) and to be honest, I don't really have one, aside from the fact that I note that the time intervals from block cast to engine assembly to final production are fat as compared to what I (trully limited experience) have seen, read about and know personally from my own 65 with what I believe to be the original engine. I am quite happy to recite facts that I have gleaned about what codes translate to what dates; there exists here a tremendous depth of knowledge about what was the norm back then and also what was theoretically possible, perhaps the wise men and women will share.
All I can say is that you are within the 6 month "window" allowed by the NCRS for judging dated items, but the time frames raise suspicions that should be pursued further. The stamp pad and the existence of the requisite broach marks (found on original, not subsequently decked and then re-stamped pads) is one such place. I am not trying to be unkind or unhelpful, I am just trying to alert you to the limited value of my opinion on a matter of great importance to you. I certainly wish you luck and hope that you can obtain some certainty on the issue.65 MM Convertible, L76 (365 hp)Comment
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Here's numbers from 194675S116524
Used to own this unmolested convertible back in 1980/81. AO Smith body date I22; Block FO421HF (300hp),cast D205; Trans (4-sp) P0415 w/tag 3857580; diff. AM 4 21 65 (3.36 POSI). This may help.Comment
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Re: 1965 ending vehicle number question
Taking Wayne's cue, similar period data is probably illustrative.
My 14,316 production number 65 L76 gives up an April 6, 1965 birthday, working backwards the engine pad reads "F0329HH" (so 8 days from engine build to car rolling off the line with that engine in it); block cast date code C175 (so not quite two weeks from the block being cast on March 17 to the HH engine being assembled on March 29th). That's a grand total of 20 days from the block being cast to the car rolling off the line.65 MM Convertible, L76 (365 hp)Comment
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Re: 1965 ending vehicle number question
Hi Joe !
I have a 65 with a casting K194 (Nov19), body A-1346 , vin 103583 (Dec3rd)Comment
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Re: 1965 ending vehicle number question
As others have said, the interval between body build at AO Smith in Ionia, Michigan and final assy of the vehicle at St. Louis lines up pretty well. The block having been cast so far prior to the engine assy and the motor meeting up with it's target car that late casts doubt on authenticity, but it within the 0-6 month window NCRS uses to judge cars. Plus, there's another factor to mull on here.
Prior to mid-65, the 365HP small block was the top of the line engine ranking right next to FI in rated performance (plus a LOT cheaper than FI), so it was VERY popular with buyers. But, at the mid-point of '65 production, two new engines were introduced:
(1) 327/350 with hydraulic lifters
(2) 396/425 the first big block
You'll read in Noland Adam's book, that these new engine offerings put a 'damper' on 365/FI sales that didn't 'lift' until toward the MY build out when 396 production capacity was well recognized to be 'sold out'. This might explain the 'lag' in this car's block/engine...folks in Flint slowing the build rate of high horse SB engines to use up existing inventory and match the falling customer order rate of HP small block engines.
But, that's only speculation on my part. Bottom line, if factory authenticity of the engine is true concern, consider hiring an experienced mechanical judge as a consultant to 'eyeball' the motor's stamp pad for you. From a judging standpoint, the number combination you describe 'fits' within our judging rules but will cause the judges to closely scrutinize the car's engine....Comment
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Re: 1965 ending vehicle number question
I Thank you ALL for your help and opinions!! You've all been very helpful!!! Thanks.. JoeComment
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