Distributor issues from NCRS West. Reg.

**Jerry G.** · May 17, 2004, 08:14 AM

Re: Distributor issues from NCRS West. Reg.

I have a 65 FI car with what I belive to be correct advace unit 236-16 (Dave did rebuild) and correctly indexed wires. It's a TI car so I don't worry about the window very much but it's definetly not facing perpendicular to the centerline of the car. It's a little off center (to the right) . My advance can is up against the coil. I have approximatly 42 degress total advance at 3500 RPM. What are your thoughts. I have also been told that at the elevation I live at( 5600) that the car produces less idle vacumn and with the the 30-30 cam that this particular combination of cam and advance unit has a point where the advance falls off and the idle become irratic. I'm going to have car PV judged at the local regional so getting idle stable is getting real important to me. More thoughts?

**Robert C.** · May 17, 2004, 08:43 AM

Re: Distributor issues from NCRS West. Reg.

Just because an item, vacuum canister numbers or spark plug wire routing,aren't addressed in the judging guide doesn't mean they are not judged. There is a spot in the Mechanical section for Distributor, cap and vacuum and also Spark Plugs and wires. 20% of the score on the wires would be "instalation", which would cover the wire routing etc.

**Duke W.** · May 17, 2004, 09:02 AM

Re: Distributor issues from NCRS West. Reg.

The 236 vacuum can provides max advacne of 16 degrees at 8". I don't know of a more aggressive can that this. A 30-30 cam produces about 10" of vacuum at idle (900) at sea level, so the vacuum can is "locked" at full advance at idle. This is what you want!

At altitude manifold vacuum will be less. So what is your current idle speed/vacuum? What idle speed is required to achieve 10"?

Regarding your distributor orientation, I can't speak for sure about TI systems, but I expect the window orientation is about the same as with points, so I believe there is something amiss with your setup.

All I can recommend is that you check everything beginning with the orientation of the drive gear. Set the engine at 12 BTDC #1. Pull the dist. and check that the the drive gear dimple is pointing at the rotor. Check that the #1 plug wire is properly indexed in the cap as I descibed, which is IAW the diagram in the '63 shop manual. Reinstall the dist with the rotor pointing about 30 degrees to the right of centerline, then rotate the base until the stationary and rotating pole pieces line up. This should place the vacuum can about halfway between the interference points and the window should be approximately perpendicular to vehicle centerline. Disconnect the vacuum advacne, start the engine and with a dial back timing light rev the engine until the the mark stops advancing, which should be no more than 2500 on your engine.

Set the dial at 38 and rotate the dist. until the balancer notch is at zero on the tab. Lock the distributor and recheck.

Now connect the vacuum advance and check total idle timing. It should be about 30 degrees. Now rev the engine to 2500 - it should be about 54 degrees.

Your quoted 42 degrees of timing at 3500 has no context. Is this the WOT timing - simulated by disconnecting the vacuum advance, or is it the "total curise timing", which is read at typical cruise speed revs with the vacuum can connected? Since your centrifugal should be all in at 2350 the total cruise timing should be the sum of initial, full centrifugal, and full vacuum.

Duke

**Duke W.** · May 17, 2004, 09:06 AM

Re: Distributor issues from NCRS West. Reg.

At the Monterey national convention I asked the '63 Team Leader about vacuum can numbers. He said if it's not in the book, we don't judge it. I'll assume the same applies to spark plug wire routing. It's not in the JG and most of the judges are not familiar with the proper wire indexing and loom routing, which is shown in the various service manuals.

Duke

**Duke W.** · May 17, 2004, 09:08 AM

PS

I asked both '63 owners if the judges had any comments about the vacuum cans, wire routing, or distributor orientation. The answer from both owners was "none". Both cars were very nice and achieved Top Flight.

Duke

**Jerry G.** · May 17, 2004, 10:38 AM

Re: Distributor issues from NCRS West. Reg.

I will check the actual vacumn of my engine but the last time I checked it was about 11 " at 1500 RPM. i understand there is appprox 4" less vacumn at this elevation. At 1000 RPM the idle is bareley stable and if there is any bobble in idle the motor struggles and dies.
my window is pointing about 30 degrees off to the right of car centerline. Should it be at 90 degrees from centerline? If so on the right or left.? The 42 degrees was with the vacumn advance can connected at 3500 RPM.

**Jack H.** · May 17, 2004, 10:43 AM

Re: PS

That may have been that NTL's personal position (if it's not in the book, we don't judge it), but that's not the generic NCRS position.... As Bob Cook mentioned, the JG books don't cover everything. That's why Roy Sinor, when he assumed office, went on a campaign to change the name of the books from 'Judging Manual' to 'Judging Guide'.

The intent was to reinforce the fact the books are simplys supplements to a given judge's personal knowledge. Further, I can tell you certain judges DO go beyond what's written in the JG books AND judges have the right to over rule the content of the JG books. BUT, both of these actions make the judge(s) subject to 'justification' should the owner contest a judgement call and appeal the ruling.

**Michael H.** · May 17, 2004, 11:45 AM

Re: Distributor issues from NCRS West. Reg.

Duke/Jerry,

This should be interesting at the end as this subject of F.I. distributor gear index has come up before and I don't think it was ever totally researched or resolved. I agree that all non F.I. distributor drive gears should be indexed the same way but I've run into a few 63-65 F.I. cars that required the drive gear to be installed 180 deg from the normally accepted position.

I may be wrong on this but I seem to remember the problem occuring mostly when a new 070 distributor was installed in any 63-65 car. I vividly remember having to remove the dist and rotate the drive gear 180 from the normal position because the timing could never be set properly. The advance unit was either back against the coil bracket or touching the plenum, depending on the index when installed in the engine. My 63 FI car has the gear installed in what would be considered the incorrect position to this day and the dist cap window is just about exactly 90 deg off C/S centerline, exactly where it should be. It has the correct "201" adv unit and all else is correct original.

I don't know the answer but I do know I've seen this several times over the years. Hope someone can add to this.

Michael

**Chuck S.** · May 17, 2004, 02:39 PM

For What It's Worth...

Jack, the position that individual judges are omniscient and have latitude to add-to or take-away from the "judging guides" should raise reservations from every rational member.

Committees that are responsible for updating the TIM&JGs should be comprised of the most qualified and knowledgeable idviduals available for a given year class, and they should have seen enough original cars to form a concensus on what "is" and what "is not" original. The idea that any individual judge on the judging field can take issue with that consensus, and deduct points contrary to the TIM&JG is a false proposition in my opinion. If the judging guide is incorrect, then the owner should not be penalized for following its direction.

It's true that everything is not in the "judging guides", but I wonder if excluded information doesn't pretty much fall into three categories: (1) Information that is so general and well-known that virtually everyone knows and accepts it with little argument, (2) information that is available from other reliable sources (e.g. AIM, true in the distributor example), and (3) information that is either so obscure and trivial, or so variable during a production run that there is no consensus. The idea that any individual judge can take a singular fact true for his car, and penalize other cars for not being like his is a BAD IDEA!

In my opinion, we should make the "judging guides" as accurate and comprehensive as possible, judge by the book when it is correct and give credit to the owner when it is in error, and finally, offer our experience with constructive comments in any area where the judging guide perhaps hasn't done the subject justice. Judging is about helping members have the most accurate restorations; I hope it is not about playing "Gotcha" with obscure semi-secret information shared by a few.

**Mike L.** · May 17, 2004, 05:50 PM

Re: For What It's Worth...

I agree 100% with Chuck NO judge should make a judgement call based on what he or she thinks is correct. The judging manual is just that! a great guide book, but together by very knowalige people.

**Jerry G.** · May 17, 2004, 05:57 PM

That would explain some things I'm seeing.

How do you test for this?

**Mike L.** · May 17, 2004, 05:59 PM

Re: For What It's Worth...

I agree 100% with Chuck NO judge should make a judgement call based on what he or she thinks is correct. The judging manual is just that! a great guide book, but together by very knowledgeable people.

**Timothy B.** · May 17, 2004, 06:46 PM

Re: Distributor issues from NCRS West. Reg.

Duke/Michael/Jerry,

Its funny this topic came up, I just went through this last week on my 63 300HP coupe. I know and understand after reading the archives the correct rotor and dimple alignment but this will not work on my car. With the dimple and rotor in alignment, after setting the inital timing the original 201 vacuum can is very close to the coil bracket or if I move the gear one tooth back the can is very close to the manifold.

I finally took the distributor out of the car and dissembled and checked everything. I can find nothing wrong and the only thing I can think of to make my distributor not index properly is the vacuum advance can at rest position has moved the breaker plate slightly. In the end I reversed the distributor gear and everything is lined up exactly as shown in the 63 shop manual. The #1 plug wire is in the cap just to the right of the window as shown in the book, the vacuum can is dead nuts in the center of travel and the distributor cap hold down screws are perpendicular to the engine. Inital timing is 8 to 10 degrees advanced and my idle and low speed misfire seems to have gone away I think because of better alignment of the rotor tip and cap terminal.

I wish I could say it went together the way I read but I swear the gear is 180 degrees out and everything is lined up very well.

**Jack H.** · May 17, 2004, 07:27 PM

Don't shoot the messenger!!!

My input was to tell the truth, NOT comment on politics or policy. We're all members of the same club and we have published rules. To change a rule, you work through the system (your Regional Director, the NCRS Board of Directors, and/or the club officer in charge--in this case the National Judging Chairman). Now, let's calm down and read official NCRS policy on the subject. From the NCRS Judging Reference Manual (the 'white' book), Section 1 (NCRS Manuals & Their Use), Rule 2 (NCRS Technical INformation Manuals & Judging Guides):

"....The manual's text is intended to provide appropriate basic available technical information and a brief descriptive overview of the particular item or area being judged. It is not designed or intended to list or describe every detail that may be judged on a fiven item or area, nor does it necessarily contain specific VIN or date information relating to 'running changes,' early- or late' production irregularities, or production-line anomalies. Incomplete or incorrect information may appear and members are encouraged to submit, in writing (with supporting data), information regarding any correction, addition, or clarification which ma be considered for future inclusion and use to help improve our manuals or judging process.

During judging, the frequency of reference to the manual text will be largely determined by the combined knowledge and experience of the individual Judging Team. When a judging doubt exists or relatively inexperienced judges are being utilized, the manual text should be followed closely to help arrive at consistent decisions."

Sorry guys, despite what you think club rules ought to be on this/that topic, the actual policy IS in writing.... The JG books are simply 'guides' that are incomplete, wrong in some cases, and subordinate to the judges' decision.

Now, if a given National Team Leader desires, he/she can set a specific policy to bar judging this/that or enforce a specific policy. For example, you'll see the JG books for early Shark cars specifically PROHIBIT judges from attempting to assess the casting dates on water pumps. In other divisions (say, most mid-year cars), the issue of water pump casting dates isn't defined one way or another (left to the individual judges' discretion).

But, this thread started with a 'we don't judge that' assertion. My point was and is, unless the JG book SPECIFICALLY prohibits the judging of thus and such OR the NCRS Judging Reference Manual ennumerates a policy position on the topic, then the item IS judgable, but subject to the judges' demonstration of knowledge and potential scoring reversal under the appeal process.

Distributor issues from NCRS West. Reg.

Distributor issues from NCRS West. Reg.

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