is a CE motor considered original?

[michael datema]

I have a 1967 vette with a CE motor in it the motor was installed at the factory in 1968 to replace a blown motor. How is this type of motor rated???

[Dennis C.]

Re: is a CE motor considered original?

Mike - Close, no cigar. Start with casting number. if OK, good start. Then, casting date, you could be in trouble here, then stamp pad - you'd likely be OK with stamp pad surface, but stamped numbers would be incorrect for your car. So, to answer your question, is a CE motor considered original, the answer is NO, but only because it is not the original engine.

[Jim T.]

Re: is a CE motor considered original?

Michael if the person you bought your 67 Corvette from told you the factory installed a CE motor in 1968, the information is most likely not correct. Last month of production for the 1967 Corvette was July 1967. Your 67 Corvette was already on public streets in 1968. CE is a contraction for Chevrolet Engine and afer the CE on your 67's engine pad there should be a number which would identify the number sequence of your CE engine block. Your CE engine was most likely replaced by a Chevrolet dealership under GM's warranty. It could have the original intake, carb, oil pan, and cylinder heads, There are several Corvettes that have received CE engine replacements from the GM warranty. My original owner 70 has one.

[Jack H.]

Once more, slowly.....

Dennis has done this (scoring) so many times he can do it in his sleep and much is abbreviated in his correct reply. Here we go a little more slowly.... First, you can get significant partial credit for a replacement crate engine but how much depends on how closely it 'matches' the car's original engine.

First the cylinder case is worth a total of 350 points in the NCRS 4500 point/car scoring system. So, that's a tad shy of 8% of the total. The judging process is clearly defined in some updated Judging Guides, on the Flight Score Sheet and in the NCRS Judging Reference Manual. ALL of these documents are available to club members.....

Step 1. Is the block casting number correct for the car? If no, deduct 350 points (full deduct) and go on. A crate motor installed under warranty or in out of warranty service doesn't necessarily have to have the same physical casting number as the engine it replaced--just be functionally equivalent.

Step 2. Is the block cast date correct for the car (preceeds engine assy by 0-6 months)? If no, deduct 175 points and go on. Essentially you get HALF credit for a replacement engine, regardless of source, when the block has a correct casting number regardless of when the block was cast or the engine was assembled. That's pretty liberal!!!

Step 3. Is Flint/Tonawanda pad stamping correct for the car (correct assy date and Corvette suffix code)? If yes, look at the VIN derivative portion of the stamp pad for a match to the car's serial number--these two stampings are worth 25 points each.

Step 4. Is the stamp pad in correct factory configuration (absent of paint, dirt, rust that could obscure the surface and does the surface texture resemble typical factory production with 'broach' marks)? If no, deduct 38 points.

So, if the crate motor was one that just happened to be the correct/original casting number, was dated correctly (both block casting as well as Flint/Towanda assy date) AND it was the proper configuration....you could wind up with 325 judging points out of 350 available points or just shy of 93% credit for a replacement engine! Other Corvette factory concours circuits extract a full deduction for ANY deviation in factory originality of the engine block....

If the engine was built with an across-the-counter bare block that was correctly numbered and dated, you'd have 300 out of 350 points (no engine assy stamp or VIN stamp). There are a number of combinations and situations. This is what Dennis was talking about!

[William C.]

Re: is a CE motor considered original?

'67 was a 5 year-50,000 mile powertrain warranty. that covers a lot of ground

[John H.]

Re: is a CE motor considered original?

And the 5/50 powertrain warranty is how the "CE" engines and "CT" transmissions came to be, when the beanies went into catatonic shock over the volume of claims that rolled in (FAR higher than predictions when the 5/50 program was sold to Management). The beanies had the "CE" and "CT" designations invented so they could differentiate between normal 12/12 warranty engines, 5/50 (post 12/12) engines, and normal out-of-warranty or over-the-counter customer-paid service engines. That's why 5/50 died a quiet death after four years.

[Jack H.]

Not in my family!!!!

I can remember when GM adopted the 5-year/50K warranty and step-father had a party. The group of Chrysler execs gathered away from the women and chuckled and howled with laughter that GM didn't know what the heck it was doing and how they'd LEARN the hard way!!!!!!!!! The fella leading the discussion that evening was a down-the-block neighbor who was Chrysler's CFO at the time....

40+ years later, John, you CONFIRM the 'table talk' from that party!!!!! Thanks for the insight.....

[Richard S.]

Re: is a CE motor considered original?

John,
Thanks for this insight....I'm not sure I clearly understand the GM differentiation of the "CE" designation.......would this mean that only engines replaced after the 12/12 period would carry the "CE" designation?

[Chuck S.]

Re: is a CE motor considered original?

Michael, you have heard the impact of having a CE stamp pad on NCRS judging points, but I got to tell ya...As far as originality goes, I (and probably most collectors) would rather have a car with a documented CE engine (warranty replacement by owner) than a car with a later NOM replacement of unknown origin with all appropriate casting numbers and dates. The NOM replacement would probably score better in judging, but for originality, there is no contest in my opinion.

When I was shopping for my first Corvette, I looked at an original-owner 69 convertible, L71 (3X2, 435hp) that was optioned out including the rare dual disc clutch. It was in excellent condition. The only things that weren't dead stock or original to the car were a CE engine and a set of period Crager alloy wheels. The owner clamined to have all the dealer receipts for the engine, along with all the other documentation of the car since new. He also still had the original rallys, trim rings and caps and they were included with the car.

It turned out the original owner had been the selling dealer's son, and he got everything he wanted...and that included a brand new engine in 70 after a little mechanical mishap. The original was perfectly repairable, but junior wanted a new engine under warranty. Of course, no one knew then how big it would become to have the original engine.

Now, I feel like that old dude in that Harley commercial...just sitting on the front porch in my rocking chair, saying "Man, I wish I had bought that L71 with the CE engine". I could have had it for $23K, but the CE engine turned me off...I wanted to steal it for $18K. I expect that CE engine stamp has healed itself by now (not recommended), and that car is worth 3X the numbers we were talking then.

[Mike Cobine]

Re: is a CE motor considered original?

would rather have a car with a documented CE engine (warranty replacement by owner) than a car with a later NOM replacement of unknown origin with all appropriate casting numbers and dates.

At this point in the restoration world, I doubt that there are any CE engines in a car that weren't put there under warranty, documented or not. After all, everyone knows you have to have the "original" to be worth anything, even if you have to order one.

A CE is just a black eye to most and removed with a second's hesitation.

It still beats though, why NCRS values an engine Joe Blow put in a Corvette in his garage over one that a Chevrolet Zone Rep oversaw being put in. Unlike other warranty items, the dealer didn't just order one and install it. The Zone Rep had to oversee it, and sign off on it before the swap took place.

One is "history" (something we claim to preserve) and the other is simply following the rules.

[Chuck S.]

Re: is a CE motor considered original?

"At this point in the restoration world, I doubt that there are any CE engines in a car that weren't put there under warranty, documented or not."

Mike, I think what you are saying is that no NCRS member would deliberately set out to find a CE engine for a replacement. My point was that there REALLY ARE still "unrestored" Corvettes out there, and often this question comes up before some "entrepreneur" has a chance to order a replacement.

Others have related here that owners can spend years trying to find a correct replacement engine with the right casting numbers and dates to garner a little more "respectability" in the NCRS judging process. What I am saying is if a CE engine (incorrect dates) that can be established as being part of the provenance of a vehicle through receipts and other documents, then that car would be much more valuable to me than one with an "ordered" engine that has no past connection with the vehicle.

Of course, I would probably never know the engine was "ordered"; the object of the "entrepreneur" is to conceal that fact until he can turn it over. (Here comes the misguided heresy) To me, a DOCUMENTED CE engine is AN original engine...it's just not the one that came in it. It shouldn't have the same money valuation as the genuine, as-it-came-from-the-factory article, but it shouldn't take the whack a NOM does either. Ideally, NCRS would treat a documented CE engine differently than just another NOM engine.

Incidentally, I think I have heard that auction results are beginning to show that the value difference between cars with original engines and NOM cars, as well as original cars and clones (not Corvettes; Camaros and Chevelles) is beginning to shrink slightly. (Listen to the howls!)

[John H.]

Re: is a CE motor considered original?

That was the intent, but, as with all "procedures" interpreted by 6,000 different Chevrolet dealers, there were variations in actual practice (customer wants car back right now, we have a couple of short blocks in stock, will take too long to order the correct part number "CE" short block so we'll use what we have on hand and reduce our inventory carrying costs, etc.).

My '69 Z/28 has a "CE" replacement 302 in it, installed when the car was less than a year old (I have the selling/installing dealer shop order), and it must have gone out in a blaze of glory, as the right side cylinder head had to be replaced in addition to the short block

[michael datema]

Re: is a CE motor considered original?

ok i think i understand but what is a documented ce engine? Does this require original paperwork? or is the casting date enough the?

[Chuck S.]

Re: is a CE motor considered original?

Michael, when I say a documented CE engine, I mean that previous owners were obsessive compulsive enough to keep any paperwork associated with the dealer replacement of the damaged original engine with a warranty covered CE engine (long block? short block?). Documentation could even be a letter from the original owner saying the original engine was replaced (when/where/dealer) under warranty. See John Hinckley's comment above about having a dealer order copy for his Camaro's CE engine.

Unfortunately, such paperwork would be like other documentation on these old cars: There WERE some owners that kept that kind of stuff, and if present-day owners were lucky enough to receive any documentation with their car, they are the exception.

However...IF a CE engine can be documented, it is a part of the car's history that was developed cooperatively between the owner, the dealer, and Chevrolet. That doesn't mean a CE engine should be treated as the original engine, but as Mike Cobine said, these CE engines had to be approved by the zone rep, and somewhere, sometime, there had to be GM internal control documents that specifically assigned this new CE engine to this vehicle. That's why I say (my personal opinion) that a car with a CE engine is MORE original to me, and more valuable to me, than one with a correct replacement engine with appropriate casting numbers and dates.

To my knowledge, current NCRS judging policy will treat a car with a CE engine just like any other NOM car. In fact, judging may be slightly harsher than for a "correct" non-original engine with correct casting numbers and casting dates within the six month window; the casting dates for a CE engine will almost certainly be AFTER the six month window unless the owner blew it up the day he drove it out of the dealer's lot.

And, if you have gotten this far, I now apologize for my verbosity.

[Jack H.]

Shouldn't be confusion....

The 'game' at NCRS is to make the car look like it was originally delivered to the first owner. The 'game' and NCCB/Bloomington is to make the car look like it was displayed on the showroom floor. While similar, there are subtle differences (presense/absense of window sticker, punchouts in keys, Etc.).

Bottom line, neither situation would have had a CE engine under the hood except in the very RAREST of situations (e.g. the engine failed when the car was moved off the portable parking lot delivery truck at the dealership!!!!). At least NCRS gives SUBSTANTIAL credit for the presense of such while the 'competitors' force a full deduction and bar the car from ever seeing top honors!