69 VIN Pad Damage

[Chuck S.]

Uh...Not So Fast There, Jack...

The way I read that is IF some portion of BOTH the engine build stamp is obliterated, AND part of the VIN derivative is obliterated, which is true in Pat's case, then you get whacked for 25 (engine build) + 25 (VIN derivative) = 50 points. Did I doze again?

[John H.]

Re: Uh...Not So Fast There, Jack...

Discretionary call - I'd give him both numbers and deduct for the surface; hard-asses would ding him for the numbers too. What ever happened to "helping the owner achieve an award?". Sometimes this stuff gets way out of hand when egos get in the way of our organization's philosophy

[Pat K.]

Re: Uh...Not So Fast There, Jack...

Chuck,

I'm certaintly NOT an expert, but based on the description within the score sheetI'm inclined to agree with Jack.

The stamp pad specifically states "surface finish" which I think can apply to several items (e.g., broach marks, obliteration, etc.).

D states "VIN derivative" which means to derive something. The VIN numbers are still readable which means they can still be derived from the pad.

Pat

[Chuck S.]

Re: Uh...Not So Fast There, Jack...

Pat, I am no expert either; just listened at the feet of experts. The "VIN derivative" means a term DERIVED FROM THE VIN, meaning that a portion of the VIN (i.e. the six digits of the serial number) is used, but NOT the six characters of the VIN preceding the serial number. The serial number portion of the VIN is then combined with other relevant characters to make the "VIN derivative" stamped on the engine pad.

You get 25 points for each engine pad stamp. If both stamps are damaged such that some characters are nearly completely gone or obfuscated by the damage, the "hard ass" judgement will be that both pad stamps could be bogus.

Like John said, it will be the judgement of the guys actually eyeballing the stamps...On any given day, at any given meet, the deduct may be (0), (-25) or (-50). If this organization is about making this hobby fun for everybody, as John says, then extrapolation and interpretation of the missing/damaged digits is probably the way to go; particularly if you show up with your machine shop receipts, etc. But, I don't think you will know your deduct with certainty until the judging occurs.

The sticky question this raises then: Are all the cars being judged to the same standard? (Whoa, here we go again!)...Well, yes, with minor pertubations around the mean. It could only become important when a car is right on the line between Top Flight and Second Flight, where a little leniency in this area could have shoved a car over...Then the discussion will be, er..."spirited".

[Mark #28455]

Re: Uh...Not So Fast There, Jack...

So, if I understand this correctly, you can pick up a correctly dated block from an Impala or truck or something and as long as it has its original broach marks and assembly stamp with "correct" date for your car, you'll only lose 50 points?

[Dick W.]

Re: Uh...Not So Fast There, Jack...

I think that you would have to be one lucky owner to find an Impala or truck with the proper suffix fer a Vette. If they are not configured correctly, you still lose the points. No free lunch Ethel

[Chuck S.]

Re: Uh...Not So Fast There, Jack...

Mark, don't forget Jack Humphrey's informative post above: the case is judged for casting numbers and casting dates BEFORE the pad is judged. If those aren't correct, then the pad isn't judged.

As I read the JRM, the casting numbers have to be correct for the Corvette being judged. If it happens that the casting numbers are the same as for an Impala or a truck engine (SBs?), then the engine will work. But, later when the pad is judged, the Impala/truck engine suffix will cost you 25 points for the engine assembly stamp, PLUS of course the 25 points for the VIN derivative being incorrect.

Further, lets say you were incredibly lucky...I mean win the lottery or get run out of Vegas lucky...and found a replacement Corvette engine with correct casting numbers, with casting dates within the six months preceding your car's build date, and it also has a suffix that would match other features of the car (i.e. the engine assembly stamp is correct); then theoretically, the deduct is only 25 points for incorrect VIN derivative as I read the JRM!

You have to admit that present judging policy is an ingenious way to lessen the hit for NOM cars, and make them contenders for Top Flight; guys with nice cars that suffered an unfortunate episode love it, and some members with original engines probably despise it.

[Mike M.]

Re: Uh...Not So Fast There, Jack...

i have a 396 coupe that lost its original 425 hp engine long before i got the ole girl. i found a 396 engine out of another 396 vette with a vin # about 50 prior to the build date of my coupe. It'll be a 25 point deduct when judged as the 962 is cast dated 4/24/5 and the broach marks are tonowanda. had i cleaned the pad and restamped it with my vin # and identical machine assembly data, i'd loose 38 points(inappropriate broach marks) and be out the $ it'd take to change the pad(about 400 bucks). Mikie don't have "fool" tatood on his forehead.

[Chuck S.]

So, Mikey, Ever Buy Lottery Tickets?...

You are one lucky dog...But, some would say you make your own luck. Was the 396 engine hard to find? I figured finding a 25 point deduct replacement would be about as easy as finding an original engine that had gotten transplanted.

[Mark #28455]

Re: So, Mikey, Ever Buy Lottery Tickets?...

The small block 350 castings were relatively easy to find. They weren't exclusively used in Corvettes. If you match up the date code on the assembly stamp, the block date code will likely match too. I have a machine shop near my house who has over 200 core 350 and 327 blocks, most from the 1960's - I'm sure there are many other similar shops out there too. If you get to know the owner, they will usually let you dig to see if they have the right block for you. So, you lose only 50 points for a $100 dollar core charge! (but you have to let the owner do your machine work - which you were going to have done anyway) All in all, it's a pretty good deal on the points per dollar scale!
Mark

[Mike M.]

Re: So, Mikey, Ever Buy Lottery Tickets?...

got it at carlisle last summer for 800 bucks.it lacked main caps and required .030 bore. ready to install as we speak. mike

[Jack H.]

Don't forget 'CONFIGURATION'....

when you pick up that Impala block. The rules for cylinder case state not only correct casting number/casting date but also include the catch-all phrase regarding configuration. This is to make sure the SB block is Saginaw/Flint product as opposed to the 'identical' castings made at Tonawanda and St. Katherines. That Chevy passenger car donor you yank the replacement engine from just might have been built in an east coast final assy plant or up north in Canada and there will be very subtile, yet detectable, differences in the block's casting from these alternate foundry sources....

[Mark #28455]

Re: Don't forget 'CONFIGURATION'....

Just look for the F or V as the starting letter of the assembly date stamp