Another C2 Engine Painting Question

**Jack H.** · July 9, 2004, 10:17 AM

Re: Another C2 Engine Painting Question

I know the car and the man.... Tom Falconer is a fellow NCRS UK Chapter founding member as well as their current Judging Chairman. The '63 he writes about was in his shop undergoing restoration when we first brought the UK chapter up and running in '98 and several of us from the Rocky Mtn Chapter visiting then to help set up their first judging meet and conduct the first judging school outside North America had a chance to see and comment on the car that was in the midst of its frame-off.

There were a number of questions about this/that detail. Tom's presumption back then was if it looked old/original, that must have been the way it was. We pointed out there were several 'exception' conditions you had to be aware of:

(1) Sometimes factory methods of assy change over time and/or were unique to a given time period, assy shift, worker/supervisor, Etc.

(2) Sometimes what's written in the NCRS Judging Guides is in error + our guides DO change as we learn more about these cars with the passage of time.

(3) Just because this/that looks old and aged in lock-step to surrounding detail, doesn't mean that's the way it was originally built/shipped. There WERE times when a given car was taken off line into a repair booth to fix this/that where touch-up work was done that might wind up making a given car 'atypical'. Also, similar work and touch-up could have been done by the dealer, during normal service, and/or by subsequent owners early in the car's life....

(4) There's a artform content to each restoration and NCRS/NCCB judges based on 'typical' factory production techinques placing the burden of proof upon the owner for instances of 'atypical' fit/finish/assy.

In general, engine parts you see called out in the AIM (Assembly Instruction Manual) are being installed at the final assy plant (St. Louis for most classic Corvettes), so they weren't present when the engine was assembled/tested at its plant of origin (Flint or Tonawanda) and you can expect them NOT to have received Chevy orange/blue paint because they weren't present when the engine was painted. This is a pretty good rule of thumb, but it's not 100% accurate. Why?

Well there were a handful of items that were engine color detailed on the St. Louis powertrain feeder line that weren't present at Flint/Tonawanda (like distributor shield supports), some engine components were partially disassembled/reassembled at the final line (again painted bolts removed to install ignition shielding components, fuel pump installation, Etc.) and there was always the individual case of a 'touch up'....

**Jack H.** · July 9, 2004, 10:17 AM

Re: Another C2 Engine Painting Question

I know the car and the man.... Tom Falconer is a fellow NCRS UK Chapter founding member as well as their current Judging Chairman. The '63 he writes about was in his shop undergoing restoration when we first brought the UK chapter up and running in '98 and several of us from the Rocky Mtn Chapter visiting then to help set up their first judging meet and conduct the first judging school outside North America had a chance to see and comment on the car that was in the midst of its frame-off.

There were a number of questions about this/that detail. Tom's presumption back then was if it looked old/original, that must have been the way it was. We pointed out there were several 'exception' conditions you had to be aware of:

(1) Sometimes factory methods of assy change over time and/or were unique to a given time period, assy shift, worker/supervisor, Etc.

(2) Sometimes what's written in the NCRS Judging Guides is in error + our guides DO change as we learn more about these cars with the passage of time.

(3) Just because this/that looks old and aged in lock-step to surrounding detail, doesn't mean that's the way it was originally built/shipped. There WERE times when a given car was taken off line into a repair booth to fix this/that where touch-up work was done that might wind up making a given car 'atypical'. Also, similar work and touch-up could have been done by the dealer, during normal service, and/or by subsequent owners early in the car's life....

(4) There's a artform content to each restoration and NCRS/NCCB judges based on 'typical' factory production techinques placing the burden of proof upon the owner for instances of 'atypical' fit/finish/assy.

In general, engine parts you see called out in the AIM (Assembly Instruction Manual) are being installed at the final assy plant (St. Louis for most classic Corvettes), so they weren't present when the engine was assembled/tested at its plant of origin (Flint or Tonawanda) and you can expect them NOT to have received Chevy orange/blue paint because they weren't present when the engine was painted. This is a pretty good rule of thumb, but it's not 100% accurate. Why?

Well there were a handful of items that were engine color detailed on the St. Louis powertrain feeder line that weren't present at Flint/Tonawanda (like distributor shield supports), some engine components were partially disassembled/reassembled at the final line (again painted bolts removed to install ignition shielding components, fuel pump installation, Etc.) and there was always the individual case of a 'touch up'....

**John H.** · July 9, 2004, 01:15 PM

Re: Another C2 Engine Painting Question

Gene -

There was no engine color touch-up done on the engine dress line at St. Louis; all the items you describe (except the vacuum advance can) were installed at St. Louis, and would show no engine color paint at all. The advance can may show evidence of some engine color overspray, as it had a coffee can over it when the engine went through the paint booth at Flint Engine. The only rubber hose that was present in the Flint Engine paint booth was the water pump bypass hose on SHP engines.

**John H.** · July 9, 2004, 01:15 PM

Re: Another C2 Engine Painting Question

Gene -

There was no engine color touch-up done on the engine dress line at St. Louis; all the items you describe (except the vacuum advance can) were installed at St. Louis, and would show no engine color paint at all. The advance can may show evidence of some engine color overspray, as it had a coffee can over it when the engine went through the paint booth at Flint Engine. The only rubber hose that was present in the Flint Engine paint booth was the water pump bypass hose on SHP engines.

**Eugene B.** · July 9, 2004, 02:39 PM

Re: Another C2 Engine Painting Question

Jack and John,
Thank you both for your replies and comments.

To clarify, what color are the brackets that hold the metal vacuum advance tube and the vent hose to the oil fill pipe?

On page 67 of the same book, they are shown as black phosphate. On my original '65, they are engine color which led me to conclude that they were installed in Flint.

Also, now that I look closely, the nipple that is screwed into the intake manifold that accepts the heater hose is painted. I thought that it was (along with the water pump nipple) cadmium plated without engine paint.

Doing it right, sure isn't easy.

Best regards,
Gene

**Eugene B.** · July 9, 2004, 02:39 PM

Re: Another C2 Engine Painting Question

Jack and John,
Thank you both for your replies and comments.

To clarify, what color are the brackets that hold the metal vacuum advance tube and the vent hose to the oil fill pipe?

On page 67 of the same book, they are shown as black phosphate. On my original '65, they are engine color which led me to conclude that they were installed in Flint.

Also, now that I look closely, the nipple that is screwed into the intake manifold that accepts the heater hose is painted. I thought that it was (along with the water pump nipple) cadmium plated without engine paint.

Doing it right, sure isn't easy.

Best regards,
Gene

**Michael H.** · July 9, 2004, 08:51 PM

Re: Tonights Trivia question...

Gene,

The vacuum advance tube clip would have been installed on the engine at Flint before the paint operation so it would have been engine orange on any cast iron intake manifold engine and mostly silver on an aluminum intake manifold engine. The original color of the clip was dark grey, almost black.

I don't understand the second part of your question. I'm not sure what bracket holds a vent hose that goes to the oil fill tube. Would this still be refering to a 63?

The heater hose nipples were installed at St. Louis also so there should be no paint at all on either.

I agree, doing it right isn't easy but it's much more fun. I love the research part of it. It makes us think before pulling the trigger on our spray guns.

Which brings up an interesting question. On an all original, unrestored engine, you can often see a thin bead of goo that has a layer of orange paint on it at the base of either of the heater hose nipples. If you pick at the paint, you find that there's black under it, a sealer that was used to seal the pipe threads in the manifold or water pump. If you apply sealer to any pipe threads and insert the pipe into the female threads, you get this thin bead of sealer around the base of the threads as the fitting is installed. There's absolutely no orange on the fitting itself but the goo and the water pump have the orange paint. How can there be orange paint on the sealer for the fitting when the fitting was a few hundred miles away at the time the engine was painted?

**Michael H.** · July 9, 2004, 08:51 PM

Re: Tonights Trivia question...

Gene,

The vacuum advance tube clip would have been installed on the engine at Flint before the paint operation so it would have been engine orange on any cast iron intake manifold engine and mostly silver on an aluminum intake manifold engine. The original color of the clip was dark grey, almost black.

I don't understand the second part of your question. I'm not sure what bracket holds a vent hose that goes to the oil fill tube. Would this still be refering to a 63?

The heater hose nipples were installed at St. Louis also so there should be no paint at all on either.

I agree, doing it right isn't easy but it's much more fun. I love the research part of it. It makes us think before pulling the trigger on our spray guns.

Which brings up an interesting question. On an all original, unrestored engine, you can often see a thin bead of goo that has a layer of orange paint on it at the base of either of the heater hose nipples. If you pick at the paint, you find that there's black under it, a sealer that was used to seal the pipe threads in the manifold or water pump. If you apply sealer to any pipe threads and insert the pipe into the female threads, you get this thin bead of sealer around the base of the threads as the fitting is installed. There's absolutely no orange on the fitting itself but the goo and the water pump have the orange paint. How can there be orange paint on the sealer for the fitting when the fitting was a few hundred miles away at the time the engine was painted?

**Eugene B.** · July 10, 2004, 04:26 AM

Re: Tonights Trivia question...

Michael,
Thank you for your reply to my questions.

The bracket that I am referring to is on the '65. It holds a rubber hose that goes from the oil fill tube to the base of the carburator. Mine has engine paint on it. I conclude that the picture on page 67 of the book that I am looking at is incorrect.

That's one of the problems with pictures in books. Just because it's published in a book, people immediately assume that the picture is correct; when in fact, it may not be correct.

As to the answer to your triva question; it's a good one. I ponder the answer.

Thanks again for your help.

Best regards,
Gene

**Eugene B.** · July 10, 2004, 04:26 AM

Re: Tonights Trivia question...

Michael,
Thank you for your reply to my questions.

The bracket that I am referring to is on the '65. It holds a rubber hose that goes from the oil fill tube to the base of the carburator. Mine has engine paint on it. I conclude that the picture on page 67 of the book that I am looking at is incorrect.

That's one of the problems with pictures in books. Just because it's published in a book, people immediately assume that the picture is correct; when in fact, it may not be correct.

As to the answer to your triva question; it's a good one. I ponder the answer.

Thanks again for your help.

Best regards,
Gene

**Terry M.** · July 10, 2004, 08:40 AM

Re: Tonights Trivia question...

Mike,

I assume (I know that is a bad thing to do, but I'll never learn) that by "the fitting was a few hundred miles away at the time the engine was painted" you are trying to infer that the fitting was installed at St. Louis. My experience with early C3s (and I know that is not the subject of this thread, but indulge me for a bit -- I'll get to the point shortly) is that the installation of the heater hose nipples changed from time to time.
Check the applicable AIM to see if the nipple(s) have a part number. If they do, then they were installed in St. Louis, if they don't they were installed at the engine assembly plant. If at the engine plant, they may have been installed after engine paint -- perhaps even while the paint was not completely dry. To achieve the effect you describe the sealant would have to be installed before engine paint (thus protecting the threads from a coat of paint), then the fitting installed at the next stage of the line.
On early C3s I have seen the nipples both engine color and unpainted. My best conclusion is that sometimes they were installed before engine paint, and sometimes after.
I just thought I would stir the pot a little here.

**Terry M.** · July 10, 2004, 08:40 AM

Re: Tonights Trivia question...

Mike,

I assume (I know that is a bad thing to do, but I'll never learn) that by "the fitting was a few hundred miles away at the time the engine was painted" you are trying to infer that the fitting was installed at St. Louis. My experience with early C3s (and I know that is not the subject of this thread, but indulge me for a bit -- I'll get to the point shortly) is that the installation of the heater hose nipples changed from time to time.
Check the applicable AIM to see if the nipple(s) have a part number. If they do, then they were installed in St. Louis, if they don't they were installed at the engine assembly plant. If at the engine plant, they may have been installed after engine paint -- perhaps even while the paint was not completely dry. To achieve the effect you describe the sealant would have to be installed before engine paint (thus protecting the threads from a coat of paint), then the fitting installed at the next stage of the line.
On early C3s I have seen the nipples both engine color and unpainted. My best conclusion is that sometimes they were installed before engine paint, and sometimes after.
I just thought I would stir the pot a little here.

**Michael H.** · July 10, 2004, 09:30 AM

Re: Tonights Trivia question...

Good point Terry. I should have been more specific about the series but I often forget that not everyone knows how little I know about C1 and C3. The question had to do with C2 only.

Yes, I was refering to the St. Louis plant for the fitting while the engine was still in Michigan. There was at least a 24 hour span between engine paint and the installation of the fitting. It's unlikely (but possible I suppose) that an engine could have been painted at Flint in the AM and installed in a Corvette later that same day but even if that happened, that would not be the answer.

You are correct, the sealer was added at Flint, just before the engine was painted but not for the reason you describe. I'm sure someone will figure this out soon. Thanks,

Michael

**Michael H.** · July 10, 2004, 09:30 AM

Re: Tonights Trivia question...

Good point Terry. I should have been more specific about the series but I often forget that not everyone knows how little I know about C1 and C3. The question had to do with C2 only.

Yes, I was refering to the St. Louis plant for the fitting while the engine was still in Michigan. There was at least a 24 hour span between engine paint and the installation of the fitting. It's unlikely (but possible I suppose) that an engine could have been painted at Flint in the AM and installed in a Corvette later that same day but even if that happened, that would not be the answer.

You are correct, the sealer was added at Flint, just before the engine was painted but not for the reason you describe. I'm sure someone will figure this out soon. Thanks,

Michael

Another C2 Engine Painting Question

Another C2 Engine Painting Question

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