Forging Operations

[Joe L.]

I just read a piece of automotive news that sort of disturbs me. It seems that Nissan is adding a facility to their Dechard, TN engine plant to manufacture crankshaft FORGINGS for their engines. On the other hand, General Motors, currently the largest auto manufacturer in the world, does not have ANY in-house forging capabilities, at all. For GM, ALL forged components are outsourced to other suppliers (mostly, American Axle and Manufacturing). GM used to have forging operations located in Tonawanda, NY and, I believe at one time, in Detroit, MI. They've "spun these off" and no longer have any in-house forging capability.

This may seem like a small matter to some. After all, outside suppliers are more than capable of supplying GM all of the forged components they need. However, those same suppliers would be capable of supplying those components to Nissan, too. But, Nissan has not chosen to go in that direction. The sad part about all this is that this sort of thing smacks of Japanese companies being on the "upswing" while GM is on the "downswing".

Of course, as far as crankshafts go, GM uses VERY few that are forged steel. Until VERY recently, GM had not used a forged crankshaft in ANY PRODUCTION engine since about 1981. However, the new 3.6L DOHC VVT V-6 uses a forged crankshaft and from what I've been reading, GM has "rediscovered" the merits of forged crankshafts and will be expanding their use in the future. Maybe, at some point, they'll decide that they need to get back in the crankshaft forging business again.

That won't be good for American Axle and Manufacturing's Richard E. Dauch's 150 MILLION DOLLARS ANNUAL COMPENSATION, but I think that it will be good for GM.

[Verle R.]

Re: Diamond Back Classic Tires

Joe,

I share your concern about GM's "downswing".

I call it the "Harvard MBA Syndrome". Some symptoms are executive decisions made to enhance the stock price today without regard to the long range effects of the decision. One way to do that is to spin off and sell an efficient and profitable unit. The enfusion of cash makes the bottom line look good today. It removes control of your manufacturing process and increases long term costs.

These executives are not "car people", they are often bean counters and they don't care about the customers or employees. Their decisions increase stock price by disassembling the company. They do not try to build a company over the long term. They are rewarded by the board of directors for their stock price decisions and are not punished for decliI call it the "Harvard MBA Syndrome". Some symptoms are executive decisions made to enhance the stock price today without regard to the long-range effects of the decision. One way to do that is to spin off and sell an efficient and profitable unit. The infusion of cash makes the bottom line look good today. It removes control of your manufacturing process and increases long-term costs.

These executives are not "car people", they are often bean counters and they don't care about the customers or employees. Their decisions increase stock price by disassembling the company. They do not try to build a company over the long term. They are rewarded by the board of directors for their stock price decisions and are not punished for declining sales.

And there is not a dad-gummed thing we can do about it.

Verle

[Verle R.]

Re: Diamond Back Classic Tires

Joe,

I share your concern about GM's "downswing".

I call it the "Harvard MBA Syndrome". Some symptoms are executive decisions made to enhance the stock price today without regard to the long range effects of the decision. One way to do that is to spin off and sell an efficient and profitable unit. The enfusion of cash makes the bottom line look good today. It removes control of your manufacturing process and increases long term costs.

These executives are not "car people", they are often bean counters and they don't care about the customers or employees. Their decisions increase stock price by disassembling the company. They do not try to build a company over the long term. They are rewarded by the board of directors for their stock price decisions and are not punished for decliI call it the "Harvard MBA Syndrome". Some symptoms are executive decisions made to enhance the stock price today without regard to the long-range effects of the decision. One way to do that is to spin off and sell an efficient and profitable unit. The infusion of cash makes the bottom line look good today. It removes control of your manufacturing process and increases long-term costs.

These executives are not "car people", they are often bean counters and they don't care about the customers or employees. Their decisions increase stock price by disassembling the company. They do not try to build a company over the long term. They are rewarded by the board of directors for their stock price decisions and are not punished for declining sales.

And there is not a dad-gummed thing we can do about it.

Verle

[Verle R.]

Forging Operations

Don't know how that Diamond Back subject line got there...

Verle

[Verle R.]

Forging Operations

Don't know how that Diamond Back subject line got there...

Verle

[Dave McDufford]

Re: Forging Operations

GM is not the GM it used to be. My dad was a blue collar worker at GM so I grew up in a in a GM family, in Dayton, Ohio, a GM town (Frigidaire, Delco, Inland). I worked on the line at Frigidaire one summer in college. I put six screws in each of 1,000 refrigerators that went by me each night.

Charlie Wilson’s comment that "What's good for General Motors is good for the USA" was fairly accurate at the time. It certainly was for Dayton.

In my opinion two things happened to change this. First, the union workers got greedy, lazy and turned out crap products. Management did not help any – they lost control which was their job. The product people, probably listening too much to the bean-counters, also designed crap.

Second, the legal profession discovered class action law suits and promoted the “not my fault” mentality. Beyond destroying many good companies, this has driven medical costs to a ridiculous level. GM’s largest expense is medical benefits for it workers and its retired workers. My dad, who died last year, probably cost GM more in medical benefits after he retired than he made for the 30 years he worked. As a result, GM union workers are very expensive due to benefits.

It is sad and I do not know if it will ever get fixed. The line in Bruce Springsteen’s My Hometown “Foreman says these jobs are going boys and they ain't coming back” is true.

Dave

[Dave McDufford]

Re: Forging Operations

GM is not the GM it used to be. My dad was a blue collar worker at GM so I grew up in a in a GM family, in Dayton, Ohio, a GM town (Frigidaire, Delco, Inland). I worked on the line at Frigidaire one summer in college. I put six screws in each of 1,000 refrigerators that went by me each night.

Charlie Wilson’s comment that "What's good for General Motors is good for the USA" was fairly accurate at the time. It certainly was for Dayton.

In my opinion two things happened to change this. First, the union workers got greedy, lazy and turned out crap products. Management did not help any – they lost control which was their job. The product people, probably listening too much to the bean-counters, also designed crap.

Second, the legal profession discovered class action law suits and promoted the “not my fault” mentality. Beyond destroying many good companies, this has driven medical costs to a ridiculous level. GM’s largest expense is medical benefits for it workers and its retired workers. My dad, who died last year, probably cost GM more in medical benefits after he retired than he made for the 30 years he worked. As a result, GM union workers are very expensive due to benefits.

It is sad and I do not know if it will ever get fixed. The line in Bruce Springsteen’s My Hometown “Foreman says these jobs are going boys and they ain't coming back” is true.

Dave

[Chuck S.]

Re: Forging Operations

"The sad part about all this is that this sort of thing smacks of Japanese companies being on the "upswing" while GM is on the "downswing".

I agree with you, Dave. Unfortunately, it didn't just start happening recently...it's been going on since the eighties when imported vehicles began to excel and to be preferred by more consumers. The US car companies responded to this by ignoring it, turning out the same old junk, and continuing to alienate their customer base with poor service. By the nineties, however, world car companies were beginning to take a bite out of their backside, and they began to respond when they realized they could be marginalized by foreign competition long-term.

If the General were the stock market, these foundry operations don't represent a decline...I think it's already declined big time, and we're watching a basing activity at the bottom. We are breathless onlookers, watching to see if we as a nation, can build our own automobiles efficiently, or will we have to settle for building "Big Macs" by the end of the 21st century.

[Chuck S.]

Re: Forging Operations

"The sad part about all this is that this sort of thing smacks of Japanese companies being on the "upswing" while GM is on the "downswing".

I agree with you, Dave. Unfortunately, it didn't just start happening recently...it's been going on since the eighties when imported vehicles began to excel and to be preferred by more consumers. The US car companies responded to this by ignoring it, turning out the same old junk, and continuing to alienate their customer base with poor service. By the nineties, however, world car companies were beginning to take a bite out of their backside, and they began to respond when they realized they could be marginalized by foreign competition long-term.

If the General were the stock market, these foundry operations don't represent a decline...I think it's already declined big time, and we're watching a basing activity at the bottom. We are breathless onlookers, watching to see if we as a nation, can build our own automobiles efficiently, or will we have to settle for building "Big Macs" by the end of the 21st century.

[Rich G.]

Re: Forging Operations

Quality is what usually suffers when critical parts are outsourced. In general aviation, there has been no end to the airworthiness directives (manditory recalls that the OWNER pays for) regarding outsourced crankshafts by both of the major engine manufacturers, Lycoming and Continental. People have died when the crankshaft in their IO-520 Continenal breaks in two or three pieces. Other parts such as piston pins, cylinder assys and camshafts have also been the subject of AD's.

The bean counters rule the manufacturers these days, not the engineers.

At least if the crank in a Yukon breaks, you just pull over.

Rich Giannotti

[Rich G.]

Re: Forging Operations

Quality is what usually suffers when critical parts are outsourced. In general aviation, there has been no end to the airworthiness directives (manditory recalls that the OWNER pays for) regarding outsourced crankshafts by both of the major engine manufacturers, Lycoming and Continental. People have died when the crankshaft in their IO-520 Continenal breaks in two or three pieces. Other parts such as piston pins, cylinder assys and camshafts have also been the subject of AD's.

The bean counters rule the manufacturers these days, not the engineers.

At least if the crank in a Yukon breaks, you just pull over.

Rich Giannotti

[Louis Kolb]

Re: Forging Operations

I think you will continue to see a general decline most everywhere until companies stop outsourcing technology and manufacturing.

[Louis Kolb]

Re: Forging Operations

I think you will continue to see a general decline most everywhere until companies stop outsourcing technology and manufacturing.

[Steve Pettit]

Re: Forging Operations

Dave,

I grew up in a GM town (Marion In.)also, and worked on a line making rocker panels most of the 4 years I worked there. Dad and Uncles were in management and skilled trades. I hired in 1971 and stayed till the great oil shortage in 74-75. The antagonism between Union and Management was sincere and monumental, the most miserable sob was the production foreman who was trapped between management telling him to get the product out and the union workers who did the jobs. It was a mess from both directions. Individual initiative was rare and unrewarded. I worked with some good guys and had some good bosses, but there was very little trust from either side.

The hidebound layers of top management trashed the company by churning out great loads of crummy cars that masked the few decent and even good cars that came down the line. The story of the rusting Vega is an example of the complete breakdown of communications between labor and management. Occassionally, there would be a really good plant manager who would get some things accomplished, but too often it was a person with few people skills.

Lots of my friends and family have retired from GM, and after 4 years there on the line, I'm damn sure in my own mind that they earned their retirement benefits. When I worked at Fisher Body in Marion they had approx. 4,ooo people there. Now less than 1,500.

Steve

[Steve Pettit]

Re: Forging Operations

Dave,

I grew up in a GM town (Marion In.)also, and worked on a line making rocker panels most of the 4 years I worked there. Dad and Uncles were in management and skilled trades. I hired in 1971 and stayed till the great oil shortage in 74-75. The antagonism between Union and Management was sincere and monumental, the most miserable sob was the production foreman who was trapped between management telling him to get the product out and the union workers who did the jobs. It was a mess from both directions. Individual initiative was rare and unrewarded. I worked with some good guys and had some good bosses, but there was very little trust from either side.

The hidebound layers of top management trashed the company by churning out great loads of crummy cars that masked the few decent and even good cars that came down the line. The story of the rusting Vega is an example of the complete breakdown of communications between labor and management. Occassionally, there would be a really good plant manager who would get some things accomplished, but too often it was a person with few people skills.

Lots of my friends and family have retired from GM, and after 4 years there on the line, I'm damn sure in my own mind that they earned their retirement benefits. When I worked at Fisher Body in Marion they had approx. 4,ooo people there. Now less than 1,500.

Steve