Can the LT-1 cam be improved? - NCRS Discussion Boards

Can the LT-1 cam be improved?

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  • Duke W.
    Beyond Control Poster
    • January 1, 1993
    • 15610

    Can the LT-1 cam be improved?

    About a week ago I mentioned my review of original GM drawings revealed that the LT-1 inlet lobe eccentricity is exactly identical to the big block SHP mechanical lifter lobe eccentricity, which are the same for both inlet and exhaust. Other than having different base circles they are the same lobe! Also, the LT-1 cam uses the 30-30 lobe (again, they are the same for both inlet and exhaust) phased four degrees earlier.

    In a somewhat related thought, I wondered if the LT-1 cam could be improved on an engine with massaged heads by using the inlet lobe on the exhaust side and further refining the phasing.

    In OE form the "big port" (461. 462, 186, 492 et al.) SB heads have relatively restrictive exhaust ports with an exhaust to inlet flow ratio of about 65 percent. The "ideal" ratio is about 75 percent, and lobes of equal duration on both sides are generally best if the flow ratio in in this range. If less, a longer duration exhaust event is usually best via early opening, and if the ratio is higher than 75 percent, a shorter exhaust duration via later opening is usually best.

    Flow tests of SHP heads indicate that the improvement on the exhaust side is relatively more than on the inlet side, so a good pocket port job with three angle seats and a top cut on the inlet valve will usually place exhaust flow in the range of 80-90 percent of inlet flow.

    The use of the 30-30 exhaust lobe on the LT-1 cam, phased four degrees earlier, was dictacted by the relatively restrictive production exhaust port, but when the heads are reworked, the early opening exhaust valve is not necessary, and closing it later can improve low end torque with little or no sacrifice in top end power. You want cylinder pressure to work on the piston as long as possible, which dictates delaying opening, but at some point this will increase high rev exhaust pumping loss and reduce top end power. Somewhere there is an optimum point for every engine configuration and the better the exhaust port flow, the longer you can delay exhaust valve opening.

    Since the various OE lobe profiles are known by the cam manufacturing industry, this opens the possibility for a "custom cam" using the proven reliable OE lobes that are easy on the valvetrain by mixing and matching them along with adjusting their phasing to detemine valve timing that maximizes peak power and torque bandwidth on a production SHP engine with well massaged heads, but NO OTHER CHANGES in order to maintain original external appearance. My investigation included the LT-1 lobe, 30-30 lobe, and Duntov exhaust lobe.

    All the simulations (using the Engine Analyser program) were run modeling the OE 2.5" manifolds and pipes with low restriction mufflers that generate no more than about 3.0 psi exhaust backpressure at peak revs. The exhaust system configuration is a BIG factor in selecting valve timing, so these data and conclusions ONLY apply to the OE exhaust system. Headers with muffler and especially with open exhaust dictate different timing, particularly the inlet opening and exhaust closing that determine overlap, but since my philosophy is to leave the visual appearance unchanged, I didn't investigate the headers/mufflers/open exhaust case farther than necessary to determine that optimum overlap is usually different.

    One of the general conclusions I have reached is that when using the OE manifolds and exhaust system, effective overlap must be limited to about 3.5 sq-in-deg or average output across the range is reduced.

    The inlet valve closing point has the biggest impact on peak power. Closing it later shifts the torque curve up the rev scale, but this, of course, reduces torque at low revs. My basic criteria is to not have less than 80 percent of peak torque arrive by about 2000 (correcting for the 20 percent low value predicted by EA). The basic methodology is that once the inlet valve opening and exhaust valve closing (which determine overlap) are established, you delay the inlet opening until low end torque is at the lowest acceptable level, then experiment with the exhaust opening point to gain the last bit of torque bandwidth.

    The Engine Analyser program tends to yield fairly accurate top end power, but is about 10 percent high on peak torque and 20 percent low on bottom end torque for SHP class engines, so I take this into account when computing torque bandwidth. I like EA because it has a number of good output diagnostics like inlet Mach index, effective valve overlap, exhaust/inlet flow ratio (which takes into account both flow and valve timing), and dynamic compression ratio. It also allows the user to specify rocker ratio, and I use my measured value of 1.44:1 (at peak lift). Actual rocker ratio varies throughout the lift cycle, but EA only allows a constant ratio.

    So after experimenting around with lobes and phasing my conclusion is that the best combination is the LT-1 inlet lobe, retarded three degrees, combined with the Duntov exhaust lobe at its OE indexing. This provided both the best low end torque and the best top end power, but the differences between the various lobe combinations and phasing were so small relative to the LT-1 cam - averaging one percent and no more than two percent total range variation - that I don't think it would be worth pursuing, however, if anyone wants to proceed to building a custom SHP cam for an engine with pocket ported heads and production inlet and exhaust systems, the above description is probably the best starting point.

    The above combination yields a fairly wide lobe center - much wider than than afermarket cams with similar duration, and it's always been my observation that aftermarket cams have too narrow lobe centers i.e. too much overlap. Perhaps they were developed only with headers and open exhaust, which is typical of lab dyno configurations - not the OE manifolds and street legal exhaust systems. It's also noteworthy that modern LS engines have cams with very little overlap, and less duration (but greater peak lift) than vintage SHP cams. They make their excellent torque bandwith and power via very high flowing heads and very efficient inlet and exhaust systems. The cams feature low overlap and modest durations with very aggressive flank acceleration profiles that are allowable with roller lifters and stiffer valvetrain components without having to use excessive spring force.

    The basic approximate specs for the above cam are as follows:

    Duration at .050" lifter rise (include ramps): 242/235
    Duration at .050" lifter rise above the top of the clearance ramps: 229/222

    (Note: When comparing a mechanical lifter cam duration at .050" to a hydraulic cam, use .050" above the top of the clearance ramp! The aftermarket DOES NOT do this, so mechanical lifter cams cannot be compared to hydraulic lifter cams. The mechanical lifter cams will always appear "bigger" than they really are depending on clearance ramp design. Hydraulic cams have very short/low clearance ramps, so their .050" lifter rise will usually convert to actual valve rise. Not so on mechanical lifter cams because a good deal of the .050" lifter rise above the base circle is clearance ramp.)

    Inlet/exhaust "centerlines", LCA: 116 ATC/112.5 BTC, 114.25

    (Note: The actual point of maximum lift for the inlet lobe is 113 degrees ATC since the LT-1 lobe has six degrees asymmetry. The above specified inlet phasing is three degrees retarded from the OE LT-1 inlet lobe. The Duntov lobe is symmetric and the point of maximum lift and centerline are coincident. Phasing is the same as the OE Duntov cam.)

    Gross lobe lift: 0.3057"/0.2665"

    I'm having some difficulty reconciling the various OE valve clearance specs with the actual geometry of the clearance ramps and may revise my recommended lash settings for both the 30-30 and LT-1 cams.

    Duke
  • Joe L.
    Beyond Control Poster
    • February 1, 1988
    • 43193

    #2
    Re: Can the LT-1 cam be improved?

    Duke------

    Comp Cams #284S.
    In Appreciation of John Hinckley

    Comment

    • Duke W.
      Beyond Control Poster
      • January 1, 1993
      • 15610

      #3
      Re: Can the LT-1 cam be improved?

      Nope - about the same low end and peak torque, but the the LT-1 cam or any of the better "derivative" combinations I tried using various OE lobes and phasing make more top end power according to EA. The 284S has too much effective overlap - nearly double the LT-1 cam. The greater overlap and earlier closing inlet offset to create about the same WOT low end torque, but the idle quality, fuel economy, and part throttle performance of the 284S will be poor compared to the LT-1 or better derivatives.

      At the top end of the scale EA predicts about 3 percent more peak power for the LT-1 and better derivatives. This is due to the later closing inlet valve, and the additional overlap of the 284S doesn't do anything at the top end because the OE exhaust system doesn't harness the wave dynamics that overlap can use to start the inlet process early.

      With headers and open exhaust or headers and a very low restriction exhaust system the 284S may well be superior in top end power despite much poorer idle quality, but my basic criteria was to find the best cam while maintaining the OE manifolds and exhaust system, and that places a relatively low limit on how much overlap the engine can effectively use.

      Another insight to consider is that as head flow is improved, effective overlap is increased eventhough overlap measured by valve timing remains the same, so the overlap provided by the OE cams is actually more than adequate with massaged heads. That's why the best combinations incorporated the LT-1 lobe with slightly later phasing.

      The best combination using the LT-1 lobe on both inlet and exhaust were phased at 116/116. This yielded the same low end torque as the OE LT-1 cam with about one percent more power. The combination of the LT-1 lobe at 116 and the OE Duntov lobe made one percent more low end torque with the same top end power as the OE LT-1, which is why I chose it as "best", but, again, the changes are so small that they are probably outside the accuracy of experimental verification.

      Duke

      Comment

      • Chas Kingston

        #4

        Comment

        • Duke W.
          Beyond Control Poster
          • January 1, 1993
          • 15610

          #5
          Re: Can the LT-1 cam be improved?

          I think head massaging is well understood, so now the issue is cam massaging.

          Duke

          Comment

          • Mike M.
            Expired
            • April 30, 2003
            • 104

            #6
            Re: Can the LT-1 cam be improved?

            Duke,
            A little off your subject, but my memory got tickled and would like to get your opinion on this subject.
            Last week it was mentioned in another thread the last available GM replacement "Duntov" cams were not as good as earlier versions. When I lived in CA in the early 80's, a local but well known engine builder, told me all of the replacement (or service) cams coming from GM had their timing retarded. I knew during the 70's, many of the auto makers had retarded the cam timing in most of their engines for emission purposes. But I was told by this person that even the high performance factory replacement cams had retarded timing. He discovered this while degreeing cams in engines being rebuilt for restored Chevys. So at that time he started using replacement cams from Crane. What do you know of this situation? Fact or Bunk?

            Mike

            Comment

            • Duke W.
              Beyond Control Poster
              • January 1, 1993
              • 15610

              #7
              Re: Can the LT-1 cam be improved?

              I'm skeptical of such claims. Some seventies vintage cams were designed with excess valve overlap, which yielded greater exhaust gas residual to reduce NOx. They were a cheap and easy way to effect an EGR system, but reduced fuel economy and yielded poorer idle quality and low speed performance. Normally, EGR is only necessary during cruise conditions, not idle or acceleration.

              There was no reason to change older high performance cams because most engines so equipped were not subject to exhaust emission regulations. Also, such a change would usually dictate a new part number.

              Interestingly, the last change to the Duntov cam drawing was March 11, 1988. The change record states that both the inlet and exhaust contours were "revised" but gives no other details. I don't think this change fundamentally affected the way the cam performed, but may have been done to aid manufacturing. The indexing was not changed. The next prior revision was 1981 when the previous drawing was completely "redrawn". This happens periodically, especially if the original drawing, which would have been over 30 years old at that point, begin to deteriorate or become too cluttered due to changes over the years.

              Here's another interesting tidbit. The actual part number for the finished machined Duntov cam is 3736098, but we all know that the "part number" of this cam is 3736097! Turns out that the end item part number - what we ordered over the counter was a "camshaft assembly", which consisted of the camshaft and the installed indexing dowel pin. All other Chevrolet cams follow the same pattern. The numbers stamped or molded into the cam blank are the last four digit of the camshaft number, less the dowel pin.

              Duke

              Comment

              • loren smith

                #8
                Re: Can the LT-1 cam be improved?

                Article on Comp Cams Nostagia Plus camshafts:

                Comment

                • Duke W.
                  Beyond Control Poster
                  • January 1, 1993
                  • 15610

                  #9
                  Re: Can the LT-1 cam be improved?

                  The article offers nothing new - just the SoS, with the bogus claim that "modern" cams are better.

                  The LT-1 cam has less overlap than most aftermarket cams of similar duration. That's why it works so well on an engine with manifolds and mufflers, and the same applies to the BB SHP cam that uses the same lobe at the LT-1 inlet side.

                  Duke

                  Comment

                  • Joe R.
                    Extremely Frequent Poster
                    • July 31, 1976
                    • 4547

                    #10
                    Re: Can the LT-1 cam be improved?

                    Loren,

                    Thanks for the update on Cam Dynamics and how their engineers have improved camshafts over the years to replace the outdated 30-30 and LT-1 camshafts.
                    I lived in Memphis for many years and watched Cam Dynamics grow from a small operation of copying camshafts to an R & D group that has no rivals. Anytime NCRS members are in Memphis they should visit Cam Dynamics on Democrat Road just off Lamar Ave. (Hwy 78).

                    It would be exciting for some of the older members like myself to learn about the new technology of how many companies have improved the "bump sticks" of yesterday.

                    Regards,

                    JR

                    Comment

                    • Duke W.
                      Beyond Control Poster
                      • January 1, 1993
                      • 15610

                      #11
                      Re: Can the LT-1 cam be improved?

                      If you want some real insight into cam design, particulary lobe phasing and overlap in an application that has exhaust backpressure - like a street legal engine with mufflers - check out the following link with discussions by GM engineers on the design aspects of the two modern LS6 cams.

                      Vintage engines also respond favorably retarding the inlet lobe and advancing the exhaust lobe to reduce overlap for a flatter torque curve with the same or more top end power.

                      Not that these cams have modest duration at .050" lifter rise and very wide lobe centers. They have a lot of area under the curve due to aggressive acceleration, which can't be duplicated in a vintage SB because of the relative lack of stiffness in the valvetrain compared to a modern small block, so the only choice is to go with more duration, but the duration should be added by opening the exhaust valve early and closing the inlet later. This would keep effective overlap about the same, but increase lobe center angle, which is why LCA is only a very crude approximation of overlap and is only meaningful and comparable to another cam of equal duration.

                      Duke

                      Comment

                      • Duke W.
                        Beyond Control Poster
                        • January 1, 1993
                        • 15610

                        #12
                        Oops, forgot! Here's the link...

                        http://www.idavette.net/hib/02ls6/index.htm

                        Comment

                        • loren smith

                          #13
                          Re: Oops, forgot! Here's the link...

                          Good read. Thanks, Duke.

                          Comment

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