I need to know if the 69 conv. I have, which I plan to drive, should be put back together original or if I can add my personal touch to it. I really don't give a damn about NCRS and the slanted judging. The car is an early production from what I can gather around early Oct 68, but the intake manifold date is from Dec and the engine date is from Jan 69. So either someones numbers are screwed up or the engine and parts were replaced after it was 3-4 months old. I do not know if I want to put more chrome on the engine to give it more to look at or try to keep it original. What would be the point in keeping it original if the dates seem off??? The damn thing about it is that the engine and all components were to be original. But how could that be???? What colors did GM paint the engine and its parts anyway??? Was everything orange??? The trim tag is right with the int and ext color and the engine numbers all match and the manifolds match the engine and heads and the suffix matches the console the only thing that is off is the 4BBL Roc carb whose numbers do not match anything. Keep in mind I DO want this to be a driver, Vettes are meant to DRIVE. I just need some feedback as to how to put it all back together.
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Re: C3-driver ....maybe
It can be put together as you wish...its your car! NCRS dictates nothing and especially if you find the organization's guidelines for automotive restoration repulsive.
You may wish to study further to determine exactly what it is you have and then decide how best to proceed with your reassembly. You'll note the technical information guides state exactly that without reference to restoration. Simply a guide to help owners determine what parts are original and the extent to which they may wish to restore to the original specs. Other thanthat..tt's like furniture in your house...some like an eclectic style and it sounds like you seek something similar for the restoration of your 69.Tom Russo
78 SA NCRS 5 Star Bowtie78 Pace Car L82 M2100 MY/TR/Conv -
Re: C3-driver ....maybe
I agree with Tom, it's your car. You don't have to follow NCRS guidelines if you choose not to. As far as your numbers go, assuming the information you have is correct (sometimes the date codes are hard to read), it appears that your car doesn't have the original engine/components. Also, just because the engine is dated approx. 4 months after the car build doesn't necessarily mean that is was replaced at that time. The engine was BUILT 4 months after your car and could have been installed in your vehicle 1 day prior to your purchase. If you want a more informed opinion, please post the date code on the trim tag, the VIN, engine P/N and date code, engine stamp, etc. as they appear, someone would be glad to help.
Hope this helps a little and good luck.Comment
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Re: C3-driver ....maybe
"I really don't give a damn about NCRS and the slanted judging."
Those of us involved with NCRS judging would say you are not speaking from experience but from hearsay. The standard is very high, and many of us admit that thoroughness varies in application of that standard, but favortism (slanted?) is almost impossible...too many individuals are involved in judging any individual car.
While a NOM car can be successful in flight judging (I understand you are not interested), the resulting deducts make it much more difficult. Such a car typically does not justify a lot of investment in other areas to intentionally offset the engine deducts. If it is in original, but excellent condition, it could still do well, but top flight would be difficult.
It sounds as if you have a perfect driver car candidate, so I would drive the car and enjoy it. ASSUMING that you are reading the casting dates correctly, the engine is later than the car. It was probably exchanged complete; console plates are easily changed. Virtually all carburetors and water pumps on unrestored cars will not be original. If you have the original alternator, master cylinder, starter, and calipers you are fortunate. These are all wearing parts typically replaced by easily available rebuilds or service parts.
If you are asking us to tell you what you think is appealing to you, that will be difficult...we have doctors here, but I don't think we have any trained Shrinks. Personally, I would prefer to keep the car looking as original as possible (maintains maximum possible value) and put my money into making it mechanically reliable...maybe some cost effective performance mods to keep upstart rice burners in their place. I see no point in bolt-on chrome plated junk...It adds nothing unless you have the hood up (questionable then), and it's hard to have the hood up if you are driving the car. Keep on Vetting!Comment
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Re: C3-driver ....maybe
I better rephrase that statement. What I want to say is that the NCRS does have all the facts like they think they do. They have been responsible for original equipment being removed from a Vette when in fact it was factory. And how can a C2 have a chance in restoration vs. a C4??? The C4 is more available so advantage...C4. Plus I LOVE my vette. Why would I take my car to your show and have it picked apart when I can take it to local shows where everyone loves cars and appreciate this car. When it comes to car shows and car appreciation the NCRS is "Mommy Dearest". Why would I want to go through that???Comment
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Re: C3-driver ....maybe
the trim tag date code is B30....Comment
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Re: C3-driver ....maybe
It's up to you to choose what you want your car to be. Choose wisely and don't wear golf shoes to go bowling.Comment
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Re: I think that you have been given sound advise
There's not a sole on this board that's got a gun to your head telling you that the NCRS way is the ONLY way, or your rides junk!
There are a ton of driver owners on this board who know the deal with their rides and just enjoy the comaradery of fellow enthusiests period!
Do you think I care if my car wins flight awards? Hell no, I want to drive the wheels off it and turn a few heads in the process period!
Your asking some loaded questions that really only YOU can ultimatley answer Dave.
Maybe I'll catch up to you at one of those ahem .... other car shows some time
Chuck #32205Comment
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Re: C3-driver ....maybe
"I really don't give a damn about NCRS and the slanted judging."
Seems kind of odd to bite the hand that feeds you - first you slam the organization and then ask for our help. You certainly go about asking for help in strange ways. On the other hand, you are free to do whatever you like to your car, in any shape or form and not one individual on this forum will criticize you. We have plenty of members who drive modified or altered cars.
GaryComment
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Re: C3-driver ....maybe
"What I want to say is that the NCRS does (not) have all the facts like they think they do. They have been responsible for original equipment being removed from a Vette when in fact it was factory."
That is not the first time I have heard and/or observed that story, and let me tell you, it happens sometimes...But, NOTHING gives a restoration-minded NCRS member the smoldering burn more than to learn of it.
Judging competence, for the most part, is an individual burden. NCRS provides some judging training (schools, observer judging), but no one is "certified" to be a judge by taking oral or written examinations. Members who judge are volunteers, but it is up to the judging chairmen and Team Leaders to know and select the best qualified.
As far as the facts go, NCRS has developed Technical Manuals that serve our purposes...they are by far the best restoration resources available for putting a car back like it was when new. Most of us are aware that our judging materials are subject to unintentional errors and ommissions, and tread accordingly. Many such errors are the result of previously unobserved low-volume anomolies, different design for different options (not enough samples observed), and basing the text on limited observations (supply is dwindling). If we find our observation and experience varies from the manual, we are well-advised to go with our gut, and take our chances on the judging field. But, some are sheep and change original cars to comply with the manuals, or take the judges' word without verifying the facts for themselves.
Those of us who have had the good fortune to restore fairly original cars KNOW that you can USUALLY tell when something is original and when it has been monkeyed with. But, even then, judges can still make mistakes if they don't use discretion; Example: When a judge is highly experienced in restoration of small block cars, but is judging a big block car.
BTW, if it's a C4 you desire, then you can probably still find one out there, no restoration work or expense required, ready for judging...but if you want a C2, then get ready to buy a nice restored one, or, possibly, maybe, you can find a nice one to restore that hasn't been dogged out by now...but, in either case, don't leave home without mucho dinero.Comment
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Re: C3-driver ....maybe
please read my response to Chuck. I used poor judgement as to the language for NCRS competition, not the organization. And by the way, the hand that feeds me is MINE and Chevrolet designed and built these cars, not NCRS. I do appreciate the organization for its work in preserving the interest and information for the car that all other sports cars are compared to. But the competitions are not for car lovers. I can appreciate an original Ford F-1 for what it is and the contributions that truck gave to all the F series built even today. I guess my appreciation for motor vehicles and their history are more vast than some members can understand.Comment
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Re: C3-driver ....maybe
I think you're on the wrong forum; you came in with guns blazing, asked questions, got good answers, didn't like them, and started shooting again. Maybe you should try a different breakfast food.Comment
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Re: C3-driver ....maybe
So if I disagree with NCRS car shows I'm out??? Have to go??? Maybe I should get with other vette owners and team up with Chevrolet and the Corvette museum for those of us who appreciate the vehicle and not the organization. The little hitler mustache it out, buddy. Better lighten up and learn that you are NOT the foremost authority on a Chevrolet vehicle.Comment
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C3-driver ....maybe
A few months ago, someone posted a message on the discussion board and ranted and raved while bad mouthing the NCRS on, I seem to recall, the subject of engine pad restamping. Created a string of notes that was unbelievably long. We haven't heard much from that person of late. Maybe history will repeat itself.
CharlieComment
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Re: WE CAN ONLY HOPE! *NM*
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