Reversing C-2 Paint Disaster

[Patrick F. McInerney]

A formerly qualified auto painter of many years experience has failed in two attempts to satisfactorily paint my '64 Riverside Red Convertible. The first try failed due to dirt in the atmosphere and in the spray equipment. The second time because of improperly prepared surface blemishes.I opted for base coat-clear coat because the car will be a daily driver.
I know that much has been written on this subject but I've been unable to find references in the archives.
Assuming that I can find a qualified painter what steps should be followed? Strip completely again or sand, correct previous errors and repaint? Having gone through it once the labor and mess of stripping is not appealing. Repainting with possible early failure is sickening.
Which of the many paints available offers the greatest chance of successfull application, pleasing appearance ( not lacquer like ) and long life?
The mechanical restoration was pure pleasure. The paint pure hell.

[Ed Jennings]

Re: Reversing C-2 Paint Disaster

If it were mine, I'd correct the "surface blemishes", spot paint the areas, buff the whole car, and be done with it. If the surface blemishes are abundent, it may be necessary to respray the entire car, but I probably wouldn't strip it. How much time has elapsed between the two previous coats? Too little time might have caused the problems in the second repaint. Does it have two coats of paint on it now, or just one? If it has two, i'd probably block off most of the second coat. If it has just been painted, it needs to sit for several days, preferably out in the sun. Don't do ANYTHING to it for at least a week. Some folks might tell you a month, but that'sprobably unnecessary.

[Chuck S.]

Re: Reversing C-2 Paint Disaster

Ed, it would depend on the cause of the "surface blemishes". He could have continuing "blemish" difficulties if he doesn't get to the root of the problem.

I would recommend calling the technical help line of the paint manufacturer. They will take the most conservative approach in order to guarantee a good long-life paint job with their products, but Patrick may not be happy with their recommendations. I have just finished sanding two coats of K-36 primer-surfacer down to DP primer on my metal-bodied SUV ...I would rather strip a Corvette ANY DAY than do that again. You can be done with a Corvette in two or three days...sanding off that K-36 took weeks (I didn't work at it continuously).

One concern here...I am not sure stripper works on catalyzed finishes like it does on acrylic lacquer.

[Bill W.]

Re: Reversing C-2 Paint Disaster

If its just surface trash, sand it with 6oo /1000 wet. 2 light coats of red 2 coats of clear ,sand & buff your done. ..If you sand through the layers of your bad paint job you will need to seal it then repaint. 3 paint jobs with sealer is alot of mils.If you dont seal you could have swelling or shrinkage problems. Are you sure you cant sand & buff now ?...Bill

[Ed Jennings]

Re: Reversing C-2 Paint Disaster

We really need to know more about the nature of the "surface blemishes". As pointed out, you don't really want three complete coats of paint on the car, nor did I advocate doing this. As Bill states, if it's really in the "surface", ie in the clear coat, that's easily cured without doing any repainting.

[Patrick F. McInerney]

Re: Reversing C-2 Paint Disaster

Thanks to all of you for your responses to my problem.
The first bad job was sanded away. At this point I put the body back on the chasis and installed hood, doors, light pots, exhaust valence and convertible cover. Some minor glass work and light fill was done to improve several of the fits. All unprimed surfaces were recoated.
The car was set up in a clean down-draft booth. Base coat and clear were applied. Apparently some of the cosmetic repairs on the hood and two on the body showed deep sanding scrathes and lack of proper feathering. All other blemishes appear minor and are in the clear coat.
The job was done two weeks ago. I could not believe my eyes when I saw that the painter had gone ahead with clear coat on top of the blemishes.
I decided to bring the car back to the house and walk away from it for these two weeks.
Materials that were used, one medium wet coat of Nason Ful-Seal, two medium wet coats of R&M Limco Supreme and one coat of R&M Diamonte clear. I purchased this paint at the request of the painter depending on his long experience in the business.
Needless to say I am some where beneath a snakes vest pocket
Again, many, many thanks for your interest

Pat

[Ed Jennings]

Re: Reversing C-2 Paint Disaster

Well, maybe this is a salvagable situation. For what it's worth, here's my opinion:
You've got a hood with problems and a couple of places on the body with sandscratches showing. The hood can be sanded down again and primed. I would suggest Nason 2k urethane primer. let it sit overnight after priming and then block it down, using a guide coat from a rattle can. If any of the bodywork is still showing, address as necessary and reprimer/sit/block. Let the 2k sit overnight or longer and out in the direct sun if possible to minimize the possibility of solvent popping. When satisfied that the bodywork is ok, repaint.

Where are the spots on the body,what specifically is the problem, and how large are the areas? If it's just sandscratches, you can probably feather out the clearcoat with 400/600 grit on a DA and paint.If the scratches are really bad,they can probably undergo a similar treatment to the hood and be spot painted and blended. That's part of the beauty of bc/cc, it's relatively easy to blend. What color is the paint? If it is a non metallic color, it will be a bit easier to blend.

[Patrick F. McInerney]

Re: Reversing C-2 Paint Disaster

Ed,
The color is Riverside Red and a very good match to the NCRS color guide.
There are four areas on the body with sanding scratches and poor feathering, each of which is about 36 sq. in. I believe you are right in your detailed suggestions and will attempt to make the corrections.
Thanks so much for your help.

Pat

[Ed Jennings]

Re: Reversing C-2 Paint Disaster

Pat, good luck with your repairs. Sounds like there are some pretty large areas, but perhaps it's better than a complete repaint. The riverside red, aka roman red, should be relatively easy to blend. With large areas like you describe, I would scuff and reclear the entire blended panel, vs trying to "burn in" the clear around the blend.

One negative to bc/cc is that the base is very unforgiving of surface imperfections. Sand scratches that would be completely invisible if painted with single stage urethane often show badly under basecoat. Sometimes they are not readily visable until the paint starts to cure, ie when it's too late to do anything about it. Bottom line is that surface prep for basecoat has to be durn near perfect.

[Stephen W.]

Re: Reversing C-2 Paint Disaster

Okay Lets go back to one very major part of the information provided.
The problems were around the repair areas and consist of sand scratch swelling that identifies the repair areas.
First let me say I'm a former paint rep from R&M Inmont paints.
You cannot build a house on a bad foundation!
The problen is NOT with the paint... Its under it! This is a major problem with BC/CC systems. The Primary cause of any type of sand scratch swelling is improper prep. Sorry... That why the scratch can be seen now... Only now we have put a magnifying glass ( the clearcoat ) on top of it. The solvent rich topcoats will rewet the undercoats ( primers)and the tiny sand scratch now looks like a 36 grit scratch! The most usual cause of the sand scratch is a void caused by undercoats being applied too dry. They only "bridge" over the top of the scratch and don't actually fill it. The undercoats do not reflect light back to our eyes the same as the shiny clearcoat does so its very hard to notice them. TRACE Coat! Trace coat!!! Use a lighted color primer and dust a dark color over it WHENEVER you sand. Those nasty scratches with jump out at you BEFORE the topcoats are applied.
Even the best car will have a spec or two of dirt in the finish and yes these can be sanded with a good ultrafine paper to remove them,but don't wait too long. Check with the local paint rep and find out the "window" of time you have before the paint cures beyond the point you can work with it. You are actually melting the clearcoat and reflowing it with the heat generated by the buffer when you buff out a urathane paint.

Answer to your question:
If its a driver and you can live with the repaired "hotspots" tip off the dirt nibs and buff it out.
If you can't live with those "hotspots" you need to start over... Yes back to the beginning...Sorry no quick fix here. You need to get the old stuff off and begin right this time.

[Patrick F. McInerney]

Re: Reversing C-2 Paint Disaster

When you say "get the old stuff off" do you mean a complete body strip to fiberglass or just those areas that are bad? If the former, would you please give me sequential product suggestions from start to successful finish.
I have no knowledge of paints and obviously placed my faith in the wrong painter. I want to find a qualified shop but I would prefer to have a basis for discussion before taking another costly flyer.
Thanks for your help.

Pat McInerney

[Stephen W.]

Re: Reversing C-2 Paint Disaster

Okay, You have a choice to make and you know how good the rest of the paint job looks. You say you lost faith in the body man. Well do you want to have someone else try to now match what he has applied? That would be a guessing game to figure out how mant coats of base color was applied, How much clear, at what mixture did he catalyze the clear ect ect ect, Can it be done... Yes. But an exact match will be difficult. If someone else did the repair and he only painted it don't blame him..
If the rest of the job looks good but the repaired panels have problems you can "panel Paint" If the door needs to be done again and you have the same mix of base color the door can be stripped down to its undercoats. A topcoat stripper can be used for this. Now let the panel cure as long as you can.Water sand the problem till it goes away and build up your undercoats to prep for final topcoats. Again give things proper time to cure. Then refinish the panel. The biggest downside is called "flip/flop. This is caused by the metallic laying in different directions causing the one panel to look dark from one angle and light from another. This may result in a repaired panel that looks worse than the sand scratch swelling you were trying to correct. What you could see from 5' you now see from 25'. There is no easy answer. If you refinsh the entire side you will not have a problem with a mismatch or Flip/flop. A hood or deck area will be less noticable if repaired because its always at a greater angle to our eyes.
As far as product numbers I will leave that to the local paint rep. Call your jobber ( paint supplier) and ask when he will be in the area. Ask him if he can meet you at the store and look at your problem and make suggestions. He will have the knowledge as to what products should be used and what is compatable with whats there. He also has a direct line to the techs in R@D to assist you. Forget the blame game at this point. You need the painter to get needed information. I've been there myself and know the feeling when a paint job goes sour. The best advice at this point is to speak with the paint rep to get his suggestions and he may even kick in some free material to help the situation.
Good luck.

[Patrick F. McInerney]

Re: Reversing C-2 Paint Disaster

Thanks everyone for your advice. I'll try to take advantage of it and wind up with a properly painted '64.

Pat McInerney