I'm ready to be informed

**Chuck S.** · November 22, 2004, 12:43 AM

Re: I'm ready to be informed

Roy, the NCRS standard is probably much easier than you think...its factory new as delivered to the purchaser AFTER dealer clean up.

That means the window sticker will have been removed, and the car cleaned up inside and out, including the white walls. Exhaust manifold paint should probably have about 30 minutes of total run time on it. To meet the standard in all aspects in exacting detail probably means you have a trailer queen. But, you could probably also drive the same car to the meet, clean it up, give up a few points on manifold paint and other details, and still Top Flight. What's wrong with that? Guys do it all the time...owner's choice.

If you continue to drive the car much, it will soon become harder and harder to Top Flight...again, it's the owners choice. After putting that much work into something, some folks can't bring themselves to do it and I can understand that mindset. They end up selling the car to keep it from deterioating in the garage.

**Stephen W.** · November 22, 2004, 12:54 AM

Re: I'm ready to be informed

Roy I can relate to your frustration with some of the little things that seem to drive some folks crazy till they get it just right...only to find out someone else has a different view on what "right" is... or the exhaust tips are correct in every way visually but the magnet will not stick to it so the judge takes off points. The Moody Blues have a line in a song that goes"red is gray and yellow white,but we decide which is right and which is an illusion." I know I will never be able to buy a brand new 1964 Coupe like the one I sat in at the dealership when I was 11 years old. I still remember that day vividly. The cranky old salesman yelled at me for turning the lights around. Well I'm now the owner of a 1964 coupe. It's a great running car and mostly original. The key word is "mostly" original. My dream is to return this car to the day the first proud owner picked it up from the dealer. That will be the "illusion" and my goal. Surely you can admire the hard work and attention to detail that is painstakingly put into a restoration of this quality. You cannot get the illusion of seeing this 1964 coupe as the very newest Vet on the block by only going half way. You need to pay attention to the tiniest detail to get there.
I drive it now because its a fun car to drive. I drive it a LOT differently than I drove my 1971 LT-1 . I was 20 years old, gas was .48 cents a gallon for leaded premium and I admit I abused the hell out of that car. Run hard and put away wet.
I'll still drive the 64 after I go for the gold. I'll be the second person to own it when its a "new" car...again.

**Larry P.** · November 22, 2004, 02:54 AM

Re: I'm ready to be informed

If you never drive it, how many will even see it? You can't enjoy it if you don't ever see it. I agree with Roy. I have made the decision to make my 60 look as good as I can. The doors and hood and all the seams fit perfectly. It might have been Roy who stated in a previous post- These cars didn't have that many problems with fit when they were new. It has evolved to that peception. Either way, when I DRIVE mine to a show, 99% of the people will appreciate a car without waves and overspray. Mine is early, so my contention will be that the factory preped it for a showroom.
How far do you go with it? I was in a class in Bloomington 5 or 6 years ago when the discussion was on which way the frame was hung (drips) and where was the hook (lack of paint)!!! This was from a student. The instructors tried to explain reasonable judging procedures.
Everything said, its the owners choice and thats the way it should be.
My opinion is that NCRS should consider a class specifically for original, but allow for improvements in workmenship.
Larry

**Mark #28455** · November 22, 2004, 08:09 AM

Re: I'm ready to be informed

You have to do what's right for you and forget about everyone else!

That said, be aware of the judging requirements and accept where you have chosen to deviate from them. When the judge takes off those points smile and enjoy your car for what it is. My brother and I have owned a 1969 L89 for the past 20 years. It was dealer converted to L88 specs when new and proudly wears its L88 carb, intake and hood (yes, I have the original intake and carbs). It is unrestored and rough looking with only 49000 original miles but it will burn the tires in second gear without popping the clutch! I don't think I'll ever restore it as it's a BLAST to drive just like it is but I am aware of original parts and numbers and keep the car as original as possible just in case. Who knows, maybe I'll enter it in the sportsman class.

Why you ask? I'm a 6 year cancer survivor and realized that you can have a perfect trailer queen but the guy that buys it at your estate sale will likely drive it, so I decided to drive it now and let him or her restore it later.

Enjoy your car!
Mark

**John H.** · November 22, 2004, 11:34 AM

Re: I'm ready to be informed

That's why the judging standard allows you to lose up to 270 points and still Top Flight the car; don't sweat the anal onesy-twosies - Ops will usually result in the greatest deductions, but you want everything working anyway on a driven car, right? I don't need eight Top Flights - one is all I need, then I retire it from judging, drive the car, maintain it, and enjoy it. The next guy can agonize over the onesy-twosies.

**Jimmy B.** · November 22, 2004, 11:39 AM

Re: I'm ready to be informed

Roy,

I got the perfect solution. Buy 2 55's (you already got 1 creampuff from me). Restore one for the road and have a blast; restore the other for the "trailer queen" show circuit. You can't go wrong.

Jim Blakely

p.s. come on over and visit, I've got a pint of Guinness for you waiting.

**Michael H.** · November 22, 2004, 01:00 PM

Good point Roy...

...the NCRS does promote both accurate restoration AND driving your restored car and I think it's by far the best system on the planet. I love it! We're fortunate to have had clear thinking people on the ground floor of the NCRS from the beginning that knew there was more to owning these cars than just trailering them to shows. As you mentioned, many people don't feel it's necessary to exactly reproduce everything that happened at the assembly plant when their car was built and I agree with that. I also clearly see the other side of this and agree with the people who are desperately trying to authentically duplicate exactly what happened on the assembly line, including the flaws and medium quality workmanship. It's a challenge and an excellent hobby. It's the vision of once again being able to have that exact Corvette that your neighbor bought new when you were 13 years old. The challenge part is trying to reproduce these unusual features on the car. Paint and body would be an excellent example. Believe it or not, it's a LOT easier to paint one of these perfectly than it is to reproduce the original paint texture and body appearance. I know, I've done it a few times. I guess it's just a matter of deciding which way you want to go and what you want as a finished product.

Over the years, I've jumped the fence and joined the "drive it" crowd. I have no intention of restoring any more cars back to exact factory "roll out" condition but I'll never stop trying to figure out exactly how these things were done at St. Louis and how to duplicate it. To a lot of people, that's the part of it all that's the most fun. It's the research, the learning, that keeps people interested and I believe it's the reason the NCRS became so successful almost over night. It's the very foundation of the organization but along with that, they tossed in "drive your car". The perfect combination.

Yes Roy, you hit the nail right on the head. What other Corvette organization in the world could support such a mixture of feelings about what their finished restoration should be. You and I can drive our cars to the next NCRS event and not feel out of place with our incorrect tires or new hardtop battery. We drive our cars.

I know I start a lot of the discussions on the board about details (or add nitro methane to existing discussions) but I think it's a good thing. It brings people out of the woodwork to join the discussion and we all learn the truth about how something was done on our cars and that's what it's all about for many of us. I agree, it sometimes sounds trivil to want to know what color the original w/strip glue was but it's just part of a quality restoration. My next trivia question will be "what color was the original anti-freeze in 63-67 and I know many people will just pass up the thread but I'll bet many will guess at it. It's like football fans that discuss for hours the last game because they need more than just the physical part of their hobby/sport. Thanks Roy

**Joe M.** · November 22, 2004, 01:01 PM

Re: I'm ready to be informed

The neat thing about vettes is that they can support many different perspectives.
I've owned a vette since I was 18.....29 cent American hightest era. You can treat them as if they were classical paintings and keep them in humidity controlled rooms, ride them hard or add later vette upgrades, etc. Although I never thought about what way the paint built up on a dipped frame, I'm glad to know of such a thing. An additional bit of knowledge I'll probably never use but certainly can appreciate. The folks getting into compulsive detail about their cars dig up neat facts most of never considered. They are our bird dogs. I like to keep my cars stock looking and original to the point that the chevy manual can be used as a guide to repair the car. But if my early 63 has a later build date alternator, that's ok. If my 61 has a 62 fi unit and 62,488 posi, that's even better. Most of the folks who view these cars drool. We all get a thumbs up when we drive them. Hey, the guy in the parts store never even heard of a 327 but can recognizes an early corvette. Of course you need to explain the 61 is not a 65.

You can have anything on the menu. What recipe appeals to you?

The biggest irritation I have is reference in many messages and magazines to any corvette that is not prepared as originally delivered or a high dollar investment, as a "DRIVER". A term which implies inferiority to the other kin. These mainstream cars do not deserve this image. Let's stamp out the term "driver". Don't replace it, just don't use it.

**Jack H.** · November 22, 2004, 01:16 PM

Well said....Amen! *NM*

**Chas Henderson #28127** · November 22, 2004, 06:21 PM

I dont like the driver title

I dont like the driver title either. My 71 SB Coupe has won Top Flight 3 times and to me, I guess it would be a driver, but a very nice driver. I drive it to all the shows were it is jugded, and to other shows as well. I wanted a "new 71 car" but in 96 I bought a well used car. I had a blast returning it to "Like new condition" and no, I did not pay to have someone do all the work. I have never been afraid of driving it. I will be getting it judged again in 05, and I do that to help me keep it in T.F. shape.

I do enjoy all the little things I learn about my car and all vettes. I am glad that the NCRS has people who are crazy over the smallest thing. I do get the most pleasure of driving it and the fact that the car is a nice car is a plus. I average about 4,000-5,000 miles a year and thats all over 12 months of the year. So all you guys that have these beautiful cars, Drive them. Enjoy them, you never know how much time you got left and we as a group are getting a little long in the tooth.

Chasman

**Mark Heff** · November 22, 2004, 09:09 PM

Enjoyed the Post

As a new guy on the forum, and a new owner of a 70 LT1, I am excited about the upcoming experience of learning from you all. I really enjoyed your post Mike, and the others too.

Some of you might be getting long in the tooth, but you have so much to give to the new guys just coming on board. I'm no youngster either, but I am when it comes to this forum and restoration of a Vette. And it's enjoyable to read the responses and see how you guys interact. I find it fascinating that some care about the color of W/strip or how paint dripped on the frame, but I doubt my mind will take me to that extreme. It's interesting to know that some of you are very thorough and obsessively detail-oriented, and it's also nice to know that some of you drive em and show em, and still do very well.

Just my .02 cents, a new guy lurking and learning. But I can't wait to get this 70 LT1 the way I want it, and the reason I bought it was to drive it, then learn how incorrect the car really is by all the Judges ! I can't wait....sending $$$ to NCRS this week. But I'll drive the LT1 to the mailbox when I send it......

**Roy B.** · November 22, 2004, 10:20 PM

Re: I'm ready to be informed

By far this has been the best discussion I've ever read. I hope every one on this discussion board reads your remarks(Michael) because I feel most every one feels the same weather they admit it or not. I posted this in a way to get just the response I believe most people feel. No matter how some one has their Corvette it's a labor of love, it never did matter how some one restored their Corvette, but how that person interacts.
That was my thinking when I started SACE, they only had to have a Corvette original, modified or trailer queen.
"Michael's" statement and others cant be said any better . It's people like you that have kept me in NCRS even when I think they needed some changing because many NEW people see %99 trailer queens being judged in the flight divisions and nearly no driven Corvettes. Where years ago it was the other way around. I like all year Corvettes but see little in the way of C1's and C2's any more DRIVEN being judged . Some of the best original Corvettes are in the Sportsmans class or parking lot.( I think they are intimidated by their Corvette being a driven Corvette)
It would be nice to see the old timers that got all the awards years ago bring their Corvettes back again ( even tho most are driven now),I really enjoyed your comments and feel the same way.
I thank you all and I know that NCRS is the best organization around.

**Mike M.** · November 22, 2004, 11:57 PM

What was the question? *NM*

**Michael H.** · November 23, 2004, 08:00 PM

Re: I'm ready to be informed

Roy,

I just read your post and you have me thinking about what you said about trying to get many of the earlier members together again. That sounds like a good idea. Would this be best at some national meet or do you think a separate gathering would bring out more/less members. I know we've lost a few over the years and some others may not be interested but I'll bet most would be there.

Would an event like the January Florida meet be good or would a more centrally located state be best. Can't help but wonder what the general feeling would be on this. Would have been nice to tie it in with some kind of 30 year reunion of NCRS.

Michael

I'm ready to be informed

I'm ready to be informed

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