Stir the Pot (I MEAN PAINT CAN!)

[George Daina]

You worry about it.......

when the time comes to cross the bridge. I am curious as to why a lot of people seem to think laquer will not last, that laquer is a lousy finish. What is the history of clear coat/ base coat? Will CC/BC last a lifetime? Will CC/BC stand up to the ever changing climate of the northern states WIHOUT peeling after x amount of years? Seems to me that I've seen a whole bunch of CC/BC vehicles shed their skin, including my Blazer. Got a free repaint, was stripped to the metal, repainted by a dealer, now 5 years after the repaint, peeling again.


Guys, bottom line is you don't know what CC/BC will look like 25 years down the line, laquer you do, and if washed and waxed on a daily basis, laquer will look as good as the day you shot it.


Anybody wanna see what a laquer paint looks like after 34 years on a vette who's owner washed and waxed whether the vette needed it or not? The 66 vette was a daily driver for the first six years if its' life. I will put up the condition of the paint against any custom cany or any CC/BC, and this is only inferior laquer that can't last.


Anyway, you don't have to worry that the Feds will outlaw laquer, the worry is that laquer is no longer produced, but stores are able to sell their remaining stock. Sooo, best run down to your automotive paint supply store, buy a gallon or two, while you still can, store the paint in pint cans, and forget it. Once sealed, the paint will keep.


Hi ho, hi ho, its of to work I go.

[Rob Brainard]

Re: Stir the Pot (I MEAN PAINT CAN!)

I find it interesting that of the dozen or so responses to the paint question, not one of the responders has said they have EVER actually painted a car. I can well understand why NCRS doesn't want base/clear paint. Using high qualitly single stage paint is change enough from original. Face it, you guys who can't paint your own cars should not have to pay for old paint [assuming you could find someone to spray it], but base/clear paint is not soooo superior to single stage paint that you would be paying for an inferior paint job if you went with single stage.

[Bill Baird]

Re: You worry about it.......

There seems to be two different discussions going on in this thread. One debating the relative merits of basecoat/clearcoat vs. lacquer, and one wondering what NCRS will do when lacquer becomes unavailable or illegal.


As far as the first discussion is concerned, I've seen fine examples of both bc/cc as well as lacquer paint jobs, from both a looks perspective and a longevity perspective. I've also seen lousy examples of both. Given a good painter and proper care, both types of paint should provide years of satisfactory service.


If the supply of lacquer paint dries up, I don't think that presents a particular problem to our standards, as we're quite used to dealing with stuff no longer in production and slowly getting harder to obtain.


I'm just wondering what our response will be if lacquer is outlawed. Maybe George is right - don't worry about it until it happens. If lacquer is not being made anymore, then the Feds will probably be satisfied and not bother to outlaw the stuff. While I'm not necessarily in favor of relaxing NCRS standards, if it just plain becomes illegal to do what is necessary to obtain that standard, then the issue will need to be addressed.


Is this an issue that we need worry about, or is it a fabulous example of making a mountain out of a molehill?


Bill Baird

[George Daina]

I have.............

painted a car, or two....

[Steven S.]

Re: Stir the Pot (I MEAN PAINT CAN!)

I see all the responses to this issue already listed here. I would like to offer a slightly different view - a view from a paint supplier's stand point. My company makes raw materials that are used in making auto paint finishes. We sell raw materials to make lacquers as well as the new 2k base coat/clear coats. Lacquers are still around and a few specialty manufacturers are still going to make them. In South American, they are still the OEM product of choice and are used every day. The large paint manufacturers that supply the auto industry are under pressure from their customers to lower solvent content to help with the VOC issues. Lacquers are very low in solids and very high in solvent content. The new paints are higher in solids. The new paints are also crosslinking technologies where lacquers are thermo plastics. What this means is that the lacquer will soften in heat, therefore it will rub out very well but will burn if the buffer speed his high and you generate too much heat. The new paints spray harder, are harder to break up unless more air pressure is used or the newer spray equipment/guns are used. The crosslinking technologies are much harder while being more flexible via additives. Acid rain resistance is much better with new paints. New paints will not rub out like lacquer, you must sand the orange peel off rather than rub then out. You can get clear coats in all technologies, lacquer, emamels as well as urethanes now used. Once on the car, it would be difficult to really tell which one is on the car. As I understand the NCRS judging of paint, we would like to see it as it was, not as it could be. This means using clear coat lacquer, overly rubbed out lacquer, enamels and urethanes are all no no's. Are there ways to do it and "fool" the judges, yes, but why? An owner has to make his own decisions as to what he is going to do with his car. If he wants to use it every day and wants great paint that requires little to no care, then he will use basecoat/clear coat. If he wants to show the car at NCRS events, he runs the risk of a total deduct on paint. However, I agree whole heartedly with what others have said on this issue. Lacquers are great coatings when applied properly and under the conditions most of us operate with our cars,i.e. drive only when the suns out. it will look great and last longer than most of us. How long will it be available, no one knows. As long as there is demand and small shops can legally use it, there will be materials available.

[Jerry]

Re: I have.............

count me in

[George Daina]

But Jerry.....

how would the good ol' judges know what ya used? Wait, wait, I know, rats, doing the old fashioned way with the rough clay colored compound, swirl marks would be the norm. Dang it..what is a man to do..go out and get the old fashioned compound after applying the new stuff an' see'n how she shines to high heaven with nary a swirl mark? Oh da dilama of chasin' dem NCRS points.

[Jerry]

But, But...

Any judge worth his flags would be able to tell it "Had the appearence of "having been wet sanded with 1200, buffed with the 3m system and made to look original by the use of red rub, full deduction, all that work...

[Everett Ogilvie]

Old Lacquer

This is all interesting stuff. As I said earlier I don't have the technical knowledge to know the ins and outs of lacquer vs bc/cc. But, aren't small "repairs" far more easily done on clear coat, like if you get scratches or scrapes, you just rub them out? I have heard that old lacquer "keeps on drying AND SHRINKING, forever, thus the checking and peeling. Is this true?


Let me tell you about original lacquer finishes; my '66 is a Bowtie award recipient (ie the original paint). It looks like cr*p. I hate to put down my own car, but it is a ten footer for sure. I am very proud that it is a Bowtie car and that it has original paint, but the only thing that always gets to me is the paint condition. I don't know the entire care history of my car, but I do know it has been stored in garages FULL TIME since 1983, and with only one owner from 83 back to 74. We believe the only years the car was in the sun were from '66 to '75. The paint is heat checked, cracked, peeling etc. Now, it is Tuxedo black, which the sun probably ages more quickly than lighter colors, but it does not give me much faith in lacquer... Maybe GM had specific issues with this black, I don't know. Every time I drive the car, more chips fly off with the road bumps and vibrations. Guess I won't drive it anymore to preserve the tiny amount of original paint left on it...

[John M.]

Re: Stir the Pot (I MEAN PAINT CAN!)

One other advantage of lacquer paint over urethanes for those of us who insist on painting our own cars is that lacquer can be damn near sprayed in a west texas dust storm and still end up with a reasonably good quality finish.This is very important to those of us who spray in our garage and don't have access to a downdraft spray booth.Try spraying urethane in normal garage even after cleaning ang wetting down everything in sight and you will spend a lot of time sanding out the bugs and dust.I love the durability of urethane and will use nothing else on frames and suspension components(properly dulled of course),but for my for my corvette body I love the quick drying and easy rubbing of lacquer. The 40 yr old paint on my 60 was in pretty rough shape but the car had recieved no care for the last 15 years so I would think that a good gelcoat and proper care that I will still be enjoying my paint job 30 years from now.

[George Daina]

Everett, Everett, Everett.........

in one of my replies I mentioned a pristine 66. This is a one owner BB roadster, and the owner will be buried in it when he buys the farm. Anyway, my dear friend is a fussbucket, can't stand lint, dust fingerprints, rain drops, water marks, the car has to be perfect. He washes it, waxes it, washes it waxes it. In our younger days, we'd go out on Fridays, the car would be spotless, before we'd go cruing, he would go over with a damp cloth, drove me crazy. He would constanly wax the car. Anyway, the car was a daily driver for the first 5 years, saw salt, snow, mud, rain, etc. and now, 34 years later, he has cracks, not paint cracks, but stress cracks around the headlight buckets, small ones by the deck lid corners, but the paint, I will put my friend's 66 up against ANY C5, ANY custom candy jobs.


The moral, you take care of it, it will reward you down the road.


Don't blame the laquer paint, blame the previous owners for neglect. And doesn't it stand true that anything neglected will look like cow dung?

[George Daina]

Hey Quick Draw McGraw..ya forgot somethin'....

good post by the way, but ya forgot to mention that dull laquer can be brought back to life with a little elbow grease, some 1500 or 2000 grit wet/dry paper, and 3M's polishing system. If orang peel is mandatory on the finished product, then good old fashioned rubbing compound will do the trick.

[Jerry]

Re: Old Lacquer

Hi Everett:


While I am an addmitted fan of Base / clear it has it's share of problems also and especially the one you mentioned in reference to lacquer. It is almost impossible to "spot" base / clear, the clear coat shows a fogging that outlines the repair. I ask often and find no new method to resolve this problem. One high dollar painter promised he could repair a dime size lifted paint area on the leading edge of my paggenger door using a new DuPont clearcoat repair paint that was intended to blend clear into clear in a fashion that was undetectable, when I picked it up he had repainted the whole door. This guy paints only collectible cars and has the best of everything including the talent, he just couldn't get it to blend properly. He says he would rather spot lacquer anytime.


Jerry

[George Daina]

No But, But's.....

Ya gotta pick your poison, a crate of Sunkist oranges, or 1200 block & wet sanded. Show me the water, the squeege, the snading block, gimme the 3 sheets of 1200. Ok, Ok, so I loose points.


Sure wish I had some Blue Coral Sealer....Oh, Joe....

[John H.]

Re: Stir the Pot (I MEAN PAINT CAN!)

It's ALREADY illegal to sell it or spray it in many States - what do those guys do? I went through this trauma myself two years ago, and finally decided there was no way I was going to pay $5000 to have my car painted with an obsolete, inferior material (which, even applied correctly to avoid crazing/cracking) will still fade and deteriorate with UV exposure (sunlight - simple - just don't park it outdoors and only drive on overcast days). I took a deduction but got my Top Flight anyway, but now, as I drive it every chance I get, I don't have to baby my paint finish for the next umpteen years to keep it looking good. The "trailer queen" cars are truly fabulous, and I admire the guys who have lavished all the time, money, and effort on them - lacquer works for them, but I intend to keep driving mine for many more years, and don't want to have to baby my paint job month-to-month to keep it looking great. Although the Federal and Michigan EPA haven't dropped the hammer on lacquer VOC emissions for individuals and small shops yet where I live, they've made it clear that it's coming soon (by the nature of my job, I am VERY close to this issue from a high-volume OEM paint shop perspective, and I'm quite familiar with the technical issues involved). I hate to drag out this thread any further (again), but the day is soon going to be upon us when NCRS is finally going to have to address this highly-contentious issue with some reason. It will soon be a Federal regulatory and legal issue nationwide, not just a matter of individual preference. Sorry I got so wound up - this subject just gets me going - got to get our heads out of the sand and do something reasonable to address it.


John