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Re: Over restoration
Brent,
It is somewhat a subjective issue, but almost every item that is judged has a large subjective element to it. We rely on judges to judge a car based on their experience with similar cars, with the JG to help guide them. If a car shows up with laser-straight panels with no evidence of orange peel,1/8" gaps and all panels fitting perfect, then clearly, the body has been over-restored. Every judge makes his own determination as to the level of over-restoration of the body and how much to deduct, if at all. I have made the decision to over-restore bodies on cars, and have never been judged unfairly. I made the decision going in because I wanted a car that was more than a trailer queen and would show well at a local show and shine. Even with the deducts, I still ended up in 99% range at flight judging. You just have to decide what issues you are willing to take a hit on, and which issues you just can't live with on your car if you have to look at it every day.
Regards, John McGraw -
Re: Over restoration
Brent,
Welcome to the NCRS discussion board. The first post is always the most difficult but after just a few more, you'll be a regular here.
You have an interesting but difficult question. Body fit has always been a problem with judging and I see no change in the near future. The biggest part of the problem is the fact that there really is no "standard" by which a body can be judged. We've all seen unrestored cars with near perfect fit but we've also seen unrestored cars that were absolutely terrible as far as panel fit. If both examples are unrestored originals, it would then be improper to say the car with the poor fit can't receive the highest rating if that's the way it rolled off the assembly line. If we restore something, even something that fits poorly, it will fit just as poorly after the restoration as it did before and no points should ever be deducted because of it. That may be a little difficult for some to accept but that's the reality of it.
On the other side of the scale, some cars could have been near perfect at assembly and some judges may feel the fit was altered or made much better than it was originally. The problem is, there's really no way to determine if it was that way when new or "over restored".
The 64 coupe that I bought new in 64 was absolutely one of the worst fitting body's I've ever seen and many of the gaps were not even close to factory specs. If this car were judged today, I'm sure some judges would (incorrectly) deduct points for fit but if, during restoration, the fit was modified, it would actually be just that. A modification.
Personally, I feel that much less importance should be placed on body fit. Poor fit is just a part of Corvette and I don't think it should be an issue.
I can give you a hundred reasons why some fit and some don't but that's not really the issue.
Of all the many different areas of restoration on a Corvette, I think the body and paint is probably the worst as far as following "typical factory" appearance. If your doors don't fit just exactly the way they're supposed to, I wouldn't be concerned.
I'm sure this opinion will bring several posts but I welcome the opportunity to reply. Thanks,
MichaelComment
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Re: Over restoration
Brent,
You are correct, the archives are a great resource. One thing that will make your searches more productive is to select "all terms" instead of "any term". That will significantly reduce the number and increase the quality of the returns.
Good luck with the 64!Comment
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There Is (Almost) Nothing New Under The Sun...
Brent, now that you have spent two or three years here, you should have seen the same questions dozens of times...sometimes they repeat even within the same index page (2-3 days).
Now, what that tells me is the latest asker isn't interested in learning about Corvettes, or spending any time with club members; he just wants to get his question answered and go away, only to return again when he needs more advice. There's nothing wrong with that, but when the question has just been asked the previous day and the thread is still on the first index page...or...if the detailed answer requires a lot of complicated explanation (and you know there's an excellent explanation by someone knowledgeable in the archives), there is a temptation to just post "Check the archives". It saves our arthritic digits and server storage space. If I know the guy is a newbie, I will usually try to answer their questions in terms they can understand.
Now about those archives (I think this will be the fourth time I've posted this, but it bears repetition): Start with the most recent archiving period, and write down several key words to define your topic of interest...enough words for a full description, but no more than you need to be specific. If you are too general, you will get 7500 hits...or more. If you have too many terms, you may get nothing. If you get nothing, then there is nothing archived. (Uh-oh...it's either SO simple that EVERYBODY knows the answer, Or...so difficult or abstract that NOBODY knows the answer.
In your try, the terms "over restoration" are too general...add maybe one more word to narrow that 7500 way down, e.g. "over restoration paint" or "over restoration gaps", or "over restoration plating". The words don't have to make a phrase that makes sense, because the computer is only going to look at one word at a time anyway. Then, where it says Find: Any terms, click on the pull down menu and select "All terms". The server will then return all the posts that include ALL the words entered. Keep working through the archiving periods (and/or "terms") until you find what you are seeking. It takes a little trial and error training before you make it to click for you.
Don't be shy about asking questions; the only dumb question is one that's not asked. If its your umpteenth trip back for emergency first aid, and if someone just asked the question yesterday, some of us old grumps might to tempted to tell you to "Check the archives". BTW, your question was a good one; it's helpful to understand how knowledgeable people characterize "over restoration".Comment
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Re: Over restoration
I've never seen a over restored Corvette lose any points! ,and it's human nature to improve a Corvette when your doing a body off. I feel that if you found a hidden Corvette that never saw day light and had it judged it would never reach a %99 score as many Corvettes do to day.
Seeing bulk head lines in most fender areas or panel seams, tar type paint on frames, a light coating of rust on items , orange peal , dull chroming and many other ORIGINAL characteristic things, that Corvette would never reach %99 and may not even get a top flight.
Same goes with any real driven Corvette parked side by side a restored trailered Corvette.
That is just the facts no matter what any one may say. It's rare to find an(ORIGINAL) C1 or C2 that is driven (I mean driven) and enjoyed,, being judged next to a restored un-driven Corvette ? it would never be a %99 scored Corvette.
NCRS judges Corvettes as they left the factory, ( which was NEW) paint over pray to frame chock makings .We call that a trailer queen, the %99 point Corvette..
And as I said, compared to the "quality" of the Corvettes you see today , how can any driven or a rare C1 or C2 just found new and never saw day light compete?.
You'll get many arguments on this ,because they don't know how to really answer it, but the truth is the truth, this is an argument many people talk about out of ear sight.Comment
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Having said that,
what does everybody think about silicone brake fluid? And how big a tire can I fit on my C2?
Best of the season to you and the family, Chuckles!Comment
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Re: Over restoration is the only way
Brent,
As my subject title says "Over restoration is the only way",is true for every Corvette laid a hand to. I say this because the degree of restoration accuracy is the determination of it's deviation from the as finished product that General Motors produced. It's a fine line to keeping it restored vs over done and still look beautiful. Sharp and crisp are words to describe the best it can be witout being over restored. Because we are car guys we strive to do a good job. This good job is in far excess of the typical product the General put out the door. Let me state a few examples: frame paint with catalized primers and surfacers even before finish,....chrome plating is triple plated all buffed between,....zinc plating that is perfect in coverage & spot free,....engine blocks that are only second to the body finish and have no bare spots/see thru nor runs,....stainless steel trim that has a mirror finish. As you can see I have not even mentioned the body. The fiberglass is the most obvious but should not be limited to as "Over restoration". Almost any product we use to produce our beauties is far superior to anything available in the 50's and 60's. Such as urethane, enamel, polish, strippers, wax, buffing wheels, compounds. It is difficult to not come out with a superior looking product.
So when you are doing your car ask yourself is this the way it was or am I making it the way I want it. Either answer is correct, after all it's your car. But the person judging it is asking the same thing when he scores it.
Sorry to be so long but I wanted to express how the car guy behind the over restoration got there.Comment
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Re: Having said that,
Since I know yer not a newbie... "CHECK THE ARCHIVES!" All about silicone brake fluid, lacquer vs. urethane, wavy fiberglass, tractor tahrs and more.
Season's Greetings, Mikey. Hey, hearing from you reminds me a Shiner Bock might go down good about now. (Every day is Saturday when yer retired.) Here's tippin' to you, Mikey.Comment
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Oh, I have....
The prima dona car on the judging field when we started judging in the UK back in '98 was a '67 427/390 A/C roadster. The car was originally delivered to a Washington, DC dealership and exported to Sweden for the Swedish ambassador to the US. Our fellow NCRS UK member heard about the car, bought it, and repatriated it to the UK where he and his wife began an INCREDIBLE restoration effort!
I can't remember a SINGLE item on the car what was reproduction! They'd paid TOP DOLLAR for NOS interior components, original non-DOT tires, Etc. The car was simply GEORGEOUS!
BUT, the paint and body lines were TOO perfect. Narry a ripple anywhere and NO deviation(s) whatsoever along seam lines. THEN, when the doors were opened, door jambs gleamed with equivalent brightness. The exterior judges (both VERY senior NCRS Master judges) were absolutely/positively certain the car had been painted with a 2-step (BC/CC) finish.
They approached the owner and told him they were taking a deduction for incorrect exterior paint. He wanted to know why and they explained.
He replied he and his wife had had a DEVIL of a time getting the 'stupid' car 'right' having to add and remove fiberglass along parting lines to achieve the equivalent 'proper' fit one acustomed to owning a Rolls Royce would accept. Plus, how they'd spent over 50 hours, sanding and re-painting in the door jamb area to 'force' it to match the exterior!
The owner then volunteered to prove the car was NOT clear coated... He picked up a shop towel, dipped it in ordinary wax and proceeded to pull 'color' from a number of exterior surfaces including the door jambs!!!! The judges were aghast at how quickly and easily lacquer color 'lept' onto the towel.
Instead of taking a MAJOR deduction for improper exterior paint, they explained the Corvette was a 'kit' car--never intended to rival the quality level of an exotic European hand-built automobile. Further, he'd done a SUPERB job, but had gone beyond 'normal restoration' with his car and they deducted a 'few' points on exterior finish with the comment 'over restoration' on the score sheet.
Last, I have to admit I've done this myself (deducted for over restoration)... Again, in the UK, but a few years later, I'm working with Pittsburg Chapter Chairman, Tom Barr, on this mid-year. The tires have been SO detailed (waxed and coated) that you could LITERALLY comb your hair in the side wall reflection....
That might be a cute crowd pleasing move in a concours d'elegance show, NCRS is a factory concours situation. This level of prep and polish went WELL BEYOND normal dealer prep characteristic of the era. Tom and I agreed to take a 2-point deduction (all five wheels) for 'over restoration'....Comment
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Definition of "factory tolerance"??
What is the NCRS definition of "factory tolerance"? And what is the baseline from which this "tolerance" is measured? Is the baseline a perfect fit, and the tolerance an "x" factor measured from the perfect fit? Or is the baseline from which the tolerance is measured an assumed deviation from perfect to begin with ??? I know there aren't many that were delivered with a perfect panel fit, but are we saying that the benchmark should not be based on the few?Comment
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Re: Definition of "factory tolerance"??
How about that. I agree with Roy, Uh , I think, except the "ear sight" part.Comment
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Re: Definition of "factory tolerance"??
Dave,
I really don't think there is a definition. There's really no such thing. If the cars were to be judged using the original design drawings and tolerances, I don't think ANY cars would ever get a perfect score. Design is one thing and reality is quite another. If an owner chooses to repaint his car but not straighten/align all the body components, he can't be docked points for poor body fit if the body is still in the exact configuration that it was in when it left the plant. That would be totally inaccurate judging as far as I'm concerned.
I really think some of the people that disagree with this need to get on ground level and up close to the next original unrestored car they have opportunity to see. Look at the fit of the doors, especially at the bottom. Most are not even in the same zip code as the body around them. Hoods and deck lids don't always fit and headlight buckets are at times completely out of alignment.
The only area of the doors that was aligned to anything at all was the upper section, from the top down to the body line. Everything below that was not an issue unless it was SO bad someone happened to pick it out of the line.
I know this. If I ever did show one of my 63's and a judge wanted to take points for the terrible body fit, I would not be a happy person. I have to believe the more experienced judges are well aware of the way these cars are assembled and ignore poor body fit.
I know I'm definitely in the minority on this body/paint issue but it is a major part of the restoration and I, for one, LIKE the waves and ripples in the glass. It says Corvette. I don't want my Corvette to look anything like a Mercedes. If others want perfect, that's their decision and I respect that. I just don't want my car to look like that.
Hopefully, this "body fit" thing will die and original cars can be judged from the same page as the restored cars. Newer judges would have to accept the fact that they just weren't that perfect when new.
MichaelComment
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Re: Over restoration
Go to a Regional or a National and find a REAL original paint unrestored bowtie car and study it for at least 2 hours. look at the gaps,jambs,gutters,paint, body fit,& seams.Talk to the owner or one of the judges. Have them show you why this car is to good to ever restore. Look at the waves in the lower doors ,upper fenders & qt pnls.check out the weather strip glue slop. These are things you need to see .Books are never as good as seeing the real thing....BillComment
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Re: Definition of "factory tolerance"??
OE factory body fit tolerances, primarily panel gaps, are in the AIMs - not that they were actually followed, but the body engineers did specify a range of acceptable values.
DukeComment
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