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I am recently retired and want to buy a red 60 Corvette so am starting the leaning process now. I guess numbers matching means the original parts. Is this necessarily good? In other words, what if the car has a newer better engine, is that a negative? Any comments on this and other bits of knowlegde would be helpful. I am not in a rush.
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Re: Naive
Richard-----
A lot has to do with what you want to do with the car. If, primarily, you want to enter it in NCRS/NCCB("Bloomington")competition, then a "numbers matching" car is probably what you want to look for. You'll pay more for such a car and you'll have an original engine which will be no match for more modern Chevrolet small blocks in a similar chassis. But, it will be more suitable for NCRS/NCCB competition.
On the other hand, if what you're primarily interested in is a "driver", then you would probably be better of with a non-"numbers matching" car. All things being equal, you'll pay less for it and you'll be unconstrained as far as engine retrofits. You'll be able to build a small block of original or near-original configuration, but with far more power and performance.
Of course, a "driver" type car, all things being equal, will not be as valuable at resale time as a "numbers matching" car, but YOU WON'T HAVE PAID AS MUCH TO BEGIN WITH and the car will appreciate if the overall market appreciates. So, from the perspective of value, it will, essentially, be a "wash".
Keep in mind, though, that the term "numbers matching" means different things to different folks. It may mean original components or it may mean components which are of the same configuration/date code as original components. Such components can usually not be distinguished from those which were originally installed on the car. Also, you've picked an interesting year model from this perspective. Early 1960s did not have the VIN derivative stamped into the engine block stamping pad. So, for early 60s, a "numbers matching" car can mean, at most, correctly configured/dated/suffix-coded engine parts. For later 60s and thereafter, the VIN derivative was stamped on the engine.In Appreciation of John Hinckley -
Re: Naive
Richard, Depends on what you intend to do with your car. If you don't plan to show it and have it judged, matching numbers etc. means very little to you. If, on the other hand you want to enter it in one of the many concours events where the criteria is based on originality and condition, matching numbers is important and many books have been written describing what exactly is meant by that term. A good start would be to join the NCRS (if you're not already a member) and begin a never ending process learning about restoration and the rewards you will enjoy as a result.
Ted #32350Comment
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Re: Naive
I'm sure you'll get lots of comments. It all depends on whether you want a neat-looking car you can drive, or if you intend to compete for awards in Corvette enthusiast shows.
Original cars are sought after by purists, to be restored to "factory new", trailered, and campaigned in shows where they are picked apart by extremely fussy judges. Because original cars are more difficult to find, they command a significantly higher price... every original numbers-matching (casting, date, serial, etc) part on the car is one less part that the purist has to chase down and buy separately at inflated prices in order to restore his car to factory original. So, the more original parts missing, the lower the car's value to a Corvette purist.
If you want more than just a driver, educate yourself thoroughly (joining NCRS, reading books, attending shows, accompanying judges while they judge, etc) on the '60 Corvette for an extended period before you go looking at cars to buy, so that you'll know whether its even possible to restore a particular car to factory specs, and the likely expense of doing so. The process may take several years. Don't take the seller's word on how original his car really is. Naive buyers are part of the reason Corvettes cost so much, because they can be easily fooled into paying diamond prices for cut glass.
If you just want a nice driver, don't worry about "matching numbers", but then don't pay top dollar for a driver, either. Some think that a car without its original engine is devalued at least 25% since it cannot ever be restored to "factory original" without involving fraud.
You may decide to buy a nice car (or project car) to drive and enjoy. Just remember that you're buying a 40 year old automobile and spending tens of thousands of dollars, so if you aren't qualified to inspect it thoroughly, find someone who is.
Also in the spectrum of cars are Corvettes that have been made into street rods or otherwise modernized, in many cases because the car could not be restored to stock. This, of course, is a whole different ballgame, and, like all hot rods, their value depends upon how desirable they are to the buyer. While some NCRS members also like these cars, this is not the focus of NCRS.Comment
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Re: Naive
Richard, you mention your desire for a '60. Keep in mind '58 - '60 were virtually identical cars with minor engine changes. '61 & '62 were the same mechanically with body changes to the rear of the cars. All are in the "Solid Axle" family, my favorite being a '62 and while I love my '58, my next project will probably be a '62. Good Luck, and join the NCRS even if you do not intend to have your car judged. The information available is invaluable.Comment
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Re: Naive
Hi Mark :
I'm not sure there many 62 owners out there who would characterize their 327 as being mechanically the same as a 61, 283 and if you take a 58 apart to build a 59 you are going to have a box of chrome left over.
JerryComment
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Re: Naive
I meant to say chassis mechanicals are essentially the same, similar however subtly different.Comment
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Re: Here we go again.
Richard,
I don't disagree with any of the comments, suggestions, or advice given but just want to emphasize that it all depends on what you want and what the hobby means to you. Many have the disposition that if you buy an original, a restored original, or an original numbers matching car that you couldn't or shouldn't drive it. I have had original / restored originals, even with top awards, and have driven them all the time as if they were drivers. That's part of what the hobby means to me, and I still drive mine now. TBarr #24014Comment
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Re: Here we go again.
Richard -
I agree with Tom - I've restored many Corvettes, and I did my current one, a '57, with a lot of time, effort, and money, to get it back to factory original condition (it was badly wounded and not breathing when I started, but most of the really important original parts were all there, and fortunately nobody had butchered or customized it). I ultimately got my Top Flight when I was done (although it's never REALLY done), which satisfied my original objective, and now, with that behind me and my ego and pride of workmanship properly stroked, I drive it every chance I get, and no longer concern myself with the occasional stone chips, road grime, etc. It's nearly a duplicate of the '57 I had in 1959, and I enjoy it now even more than I did back then. Just try and buy a half-decent car to start with, regardless of which way you want to go with it. If you choose the "judging-quality" restoration route, recognize up front that it will take lots of time and effort and more money than you thought. Great satisfaction can be derived from a cosmetic restoration of a non-matching numbers car, and nobody but you will ever know it - meanwhile, you can drive it and ENJOY it!
JohnComment
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Re: Here we go again.
Living in the Midwest (Iowa) we get a lot of small (and not so small) game that will walk, scurry, or run out in front of a car moving on the highway. And at night it can be as large as a deer that have a bent tendency to dance on the hood. A few years ago, when I still had the 66 I was working on (and before it was a Top Flight), just before sunset one night I couldn't avoid hitting a racoon with the right front original knock off wheel. The racoon didn't suffer, and when I checked for the damage at home found nothing but fur on the front spinner. But it had definitely sounded worse.
Anyway, when I eventually traded the 66 for the 68 I have now, one of the questions I asked the previous owner about was the car's lighting system, (headlights, tail, side, dash, etc). He had the car for years and became a little hesitant, finally revealing that he knew they worked fine but just not how well because, as he stated, "Oh, I've NEVER driven the car at NIGHT". Well, to finish off the story, the 68 has seen a few bugs through the radiator now. TBarr #24014Comment
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Re: Naive
Thanks Mark. I saw a 59 yesterday at Corvette Mike's in Anaheim. I took a ride in it. But I am not leaping into this!Comment
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Re: Here we go again.
All of you on this board have been very helpful to me. I will join this club. Just want you all to know I appreciate it very much!Comment
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Smart fella!
You are an intelligent man, ATTABOY for holding your wallet in check and starting down the due diligence learning curve BEFORE you buy!!!!
Point is 'market' for these cars is n-modal. Some want a kick in the pants with clean look and reasonable price/maintenance profile. Others want to collect automotive history and do little driving. Still others (like many of us) want the thrill of the 'anti-entropy' challenge of putting it back to original. So, when you see prices kicked around along with value judgements, remember there are separate market segments each with it's own set of discrete values.
Joining NCRS and getting active will teach you about a few 'niches' of the market -- (1) high end driver, and (2) full factory concours. In the full factory concours end of things, we distinguish (or try to) between 'numbers matching', 'correct', and factory original production items. The distinction is gossamer, but VERY important to some in certain circles. What I'm saying is a part that 'could have been' on the Corvette from the original build (correct dates, numbers, Etc.), but spent its former life on another Corvette, Chevy passenger car/truck, may be worth less than the known, bona fide, original part that was actually installed at the time the car was built.
To others, the factory original vs. 'correct' distinction is lost and meaningless. There's merit on this side too. Just because it's the real McCoy doesn't mean its performance/longevity silhouette is superior to an off-the-shelf replacement item or a 'correct' but non-original (for that car) item.
Bottom line, beauty IS in the eye's of the beholder. Getting comfortable with the minor distinctions here/there and their ramifications is what makes this hobby interesting and fun. In the end, I really try to steer away from using the words 'right/wrong' in my Corvette vocabulary because these are inherent value judgements that only have meaning (sometimes insulting to a given owner) in the context of talker/listener specifics.Comment
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